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Old 05-05-2013, 03:51 PM   #46
Capt Crash
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
Can you help me. I can't seem to find a corner on the street I can do this safely except for interstate on and off ramps. Most corners that I can go fast enough around legally to utilize the technique are blind enough to where if I am taking them safely I am going too slow to trailbrake into them.
Functionally you can trail brake in any corner. It's really about a smooth transition from brakes to throttle while at lean. If you pay attention, lots of folks engine brake to the apex and then throttle out, using the engine to slow the bike. This need not be done only at 100mph it is probably being done when you right or left turn while in motion, say coming off the main drag.

LISTEN and you'll hear it.
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:03 PM   #47
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When I'm on a long straight-away and encounter a stop sign, I come to a complete stop with both feet down. I'm calling that trail braking also.
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:35 PM   #48
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I'm no expert, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn. I typically trail braked for some 30 or so years of dirt, street, and racing... Until I owned a SV1000S about 10 years ago and discovered it cornered much better with much less effort if I fully let go of the front brake before committing to full tip in. On that bike if I held the brakes too long after initiating the turn it was difficult to get it to lean in without feeling like I was pushing the front. No brakes, neutral load, turn in was easy. I moved the forks up and down and tried increasing/decreasing preload to find a better setup, but it always felt better with no brakes applied after turn initiation. I realized when applying that to other bikes that hey, it works on this one too.

In contrast the GS I bought after the SV cornered completely different and I could trail brake without that feeling the front was going to tuck at any moment... In fact, that bike felt more stable and planted in turns than any bike I had recently owned. It railed.

The GS was a couple of bikes ago but I still try to do most of my braking prior to initiating the turn because I believe it is a safer technique for street riding where road conditions are less certain.

On the track, you don't want to leave any tools in the tool box and aggressive situations will require deep braking. Nobody can tell me they don't trail brake on the race track. It's impossible not to in a competitive environment where you are attacking the corners or trying to figure out a different line than the guy in front of you. Most passing is set up on the approach to the turn and getting a good exit that sticks. Generally that requires braking late and deep into the turn. There were many examples of that in today's MotoGP race and it also resulted in Marquez punting Lorenzo to the side because he was where Lorenzo wanted to be first. Lorenzo tries to turn in and hey, there's this guy on a Honda blocking my perfect turn.


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Old 05-05-2013, 07:01 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
That really depends on the corner doesn't it? Flick vs trailbraking

I find it very difficult to find a corner I can take safely that allows me to carry enough speed to trailbrake effectively(street)


Actually I find trail braking to be the biggest help on turns where the bike is capable of a higher speed than I'm pushing it, most especially long sweepers. My DR650 is kinda' long legged and it takes some speed/hard riding before the suspension really settles in through the turns. I can artificially settle the suspension with just a little braking... hey, I can actually control how much compression the suspension gets by using the brake. I don't need to carry a bunch of speed, although trail braking does allow me to ride faster.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:01 AM   #50
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Whether its by braking before the turn, downshifting/engine braking, or trailbraking to the apex and rolling the throttle on, the biggest point is to develop a riding technique that maximizes traction while maintaining smooth transitions.

Smooth transitions apply to all aspects of riding, straight line, braking, turns, leaning, powering out of turns. I have found anything I do to give me consistent traction and feedback from the contact patches results in smoother, quicker riding. It applies as much to the front tire as the rear, and consistent steady traction load at the front tire for me makes it easier to ride quicker and maintain the "pace".

I've taken up dirt riding and recreational ice-racing to improve my skills (55 and still learning) and finding the elusive max-traction can be a real eye opener. I have on occasion done a feet-up power slide on dry pavement (on a BMW R1200GS), that had I not had dirt and ice expeience may have been far less than pleasant.
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:25 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by AzItLies View Post
My understanding is yer 'trailing off' the brakes from entry to apex, then throttling on from apex to exit.

Both in the ART and Freddie Spencer indicate Trail Braking can be just the front, just the rear, or both. Personally, I like both.

The unfortunate misunderstanding is from the name "Trail", and thus many associate it with dragging the rear brake (as one would do riding trails).

Really scary part of just using the rear, as noted by the above mentioned, sliding the rear may very well result in a high side... could do really serious damage...

Cheers

Actually dragging the rear brake some in a turn is kind of a possible source of traction control. Flat trackers do it on groove tracks to stay on the groove. Ricky Graham was quite the artist at it from what I understand. One video had a shot of his rear brake disc glowing orange. It is balancing out power delivery with both throttle and brake.

I've done it both on pavement and dirt/gravel. I don't see too many serious road racers doing that sort of thing all the time, because they are leaning at the limit where no brake could be applied. But I'm betting there are times they may use it.
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:26 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by farqhuar View Post
I'm a dickhead rider with 40+ years of on road riding experience who trail brakes into EVERY corner.

Thankfully it has worked for me so far and has saved me from many negative experiences.
Even when you don't need to slow down to go through it?
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:31 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by EddieMac View Post
When I'm on a long straight-away and encounter a stop sign, I come to a complete stop with both feet down. I'm calling that trail braking also.

both feet down... sounds like Fred Flintstone!


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Old 05-07-2013, 08:10 AM   #54
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This is a great discussion and very informative to me as a newer (2.5 yrs) rider. As a gearhead and mech engr, I enjoy the mental exercise of thinking about what is happening with the bike and analyzing my riding.

Now for my .02. If one wants to practice this technique in a relatively low stakes manner, get on a XC MTB. Trailing both brakes into the corner is very helpful in getting the front wheel to plant on the desired line.

What would you all say to the hypothesis that trail braking has a greater effect on bikes with slacker head angles and more suspension travel available, i.e. a DR650? If one is on the front brakes on corner entry the suspension is settled into it's travel while still having a reasonable amount of travel left for irregularities. Additionally, if the front is more compressed than the back, the head angle tightens up resulting in quicker turn in.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:16 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by mtnbikeboy View Post
This is a great discussion and very informative to me as a newer (2.5 yrs) rider. As a gearhead and mech engr, I enjoy the mental exercise of thinking about what is happening with the bike and analyzing my riding.

Now for my .02. If one wants to practice this technique in a relatively low stakes manner, get on a XC MTB. Trailing both brakes into the corner is very helpful in getting the front wheel to plant on the desired line.

What would you all say to the hypothesis that trail braking has a greater effect on bikes with slacker head angles and more suspension travel available, i.e. a DR650? If one is on the front brakes on corner entry the suspension is settled into it's travel while still having a reasonable amount of travel left for irregularities. Additionally, if the front is more compressed than the back, the head angle tightens up resulting in quicker turn in.

It works fine on short throw suspensions as well, there are a couple tracks were I'm on the front brake at near WFO through a left right transition to get the bike to snap over.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:16 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by mtnbikeboy View Post
Additionally, if the front is more compressed than the back, the head angle tightens up resulting in quicker turn in.
This is one of the main reasons to do it
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:19 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
This is one of the main reasons to do it
I learned it as a means to keep the front end from bouncing on tip-in, but yeah.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:49 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
This is one of the main reasons to do it
That's my understanding also. When taking the MSF ART the RC made a point of asking if we felt the 'easier turnin'? How stable the bike felt is really awesome.

Cheers
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:12 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Capt Crash View Post
I think the panic grab is an under estimated in its contribution to overall crashing.
This is an overlooked safety advantage to trail braking as a habit. Once you get comfortable using your brakes while cornering, the surprise herd of cows, downed tree, or spilled load in a blind corner is not a problem and braking to avoid the trouble is second nature. If your brain screems "Don't brake and turn at the same time! " you crash.

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Old 05-07-2013, 08:24 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Sparrowhawk View Post
This is an overlooked safety advantage to trail braking as a habit. Once you get comfortable using your brakes while cornering, the surprise herd of cows, downed tree, or spilled load in a blind corner is not a problem and braking to avoid the trouble is second nature. If your brain screems "Don't brake and turn at the same time! " you crash.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
The only advantage I ever heard that is against tipping in with the brakes on is that it is easier to save a slide if you're leaned over on the throttle than if you're leaned over on the brakes.

Anyone like to have a go at that one? Of course a surface hazard won't matter the front will slide regardless, but if the road is just slippery in general and you're barely holding on without knowing it, we would prefer to be on the throttle if and when it breaks loose.
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