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Old 07-14-2013, 07:28 AM   #331
iride4u
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Originally Posted by nickgoa View Post
My dealer is both car and bike BMW dealer... The service advisor once told me some items are intentionally not bulletproof to keep customers coming back to the dealership.
It didn't really make sense to me. What brought it up was a failed high pressure fuel pump that was a known issue for a long time before BMW had to recall and extend warranty. Years went by with them just replacing the part and not really addressing a fix.

my last car upgrade did happen as I was using a loaner car ... On a routine service call.
I simply had to have that turbo BMW ...

It still doesn't make sense for new vehicles to have these nuisance items installed.
A lot of items have a weak link designed to fail before a larger more expensive part fails. Back before stepper motors, many office machines used chains with plastic gears that would strip. If this was not designed into the product and a bearing froze it could bend a frame. This happened many times do to incompatible lubricants, lack of lubricants, or parts that were run past there life span.
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Old 07-14-2013, 10:53 AM   #332
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On the clutch master cylinder issue, I think there is some confusion about what the master cylinder reservoir does. The reservoir is a holding tank to provide additional fluid to the system as the brake pads wear. It is not pressurized. You can confirm this by noting that you can actuate the clutch with the cover off the reservoir and it will work fine.

As someone else said, it doesn't make much sense that the level in the reservoir makes any difference - it could be chock full or almost empty and the action of the clutch should be completely unchanged. That being said, maybe there is something weird going on - strange interactions do happen.

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Old 07-14-2013, 11:37 AM   #333
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There is one user in the German GS forum who just got his bike back from the dealer. He states that he was told that BMW is officially aware of a clutch problem now. They admit there is something wrong and they are working on a solution. The issue they named is (hope I get that right in English) the pressure plate and pressure pin of the clutch.
Nevertheless, I also decreased the amount of fluid in the clutch reservoir and observed an improvement! I didn't take an fluid out, I just let the redundant fluid ran out on it's self! The issue is not solved with that measure but it's definitely for what ever reason compensated until a proper solution will take place.
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:46 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by oz97tj View Post
Right. But this would lead to the clutch not being fully engaged which would cause slip. This would also allow the clutch to fully disengage as intended when the lever is pulled. Lowering the fluid level could alleviate a slipping issue but your issue was rough shifting which would indicate the clutch wasn't disengaging which is backwards to what too much fluid would cause.
The main point of any hydraulic fluid is that you cannot compress it. So, whe the reservoir is so full that the fluid bursts out when you crack the top, then "there is no room at the inn" so to speak, and therefore the whole system is virtually locked up. This makes for odd behavior. I am (so far, anyway) unfamiliar with the details of the inner workings of the clutch mechanism and slave cylinder of this bike, so I cannot walk us through the step-by-step, but given that we have empirical evidence, there has to be something about it that allows the system to work better. I did about 180 miles of mixed highway and backroads riding today in 90 degree heat, and it confirmed my impression from yesterday that shifting was much improved.
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:57 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Emoto View Post
The main point of any hydraulic fluid is that you cannot compress it. So, whe the reservoir is so full that the fluid bursts out when you crack the top, then "there is no room at the inn" so to speak, and therefore the whole system is virtually locked up. This makes for odd behavior. I am (so far, anyway) unfamiliar with the details of the inner workings of the clutch mechanism and slave cylinder of this bike, so I cannot walk us through the step-by-step, but given that we have empirical evidence, there has to be something about it that allows the system to work better. I did about 180 miles of mixed highway and backroads riding today in 90 degree heat, and it confirmed my impression from yesterday that shifting was much improved.
There is a bladder in the reservoir that allows for pressure difference. It'll also push any "extra" fluid out when the lid is cracked open. As you stated in an earlier post, the system is probably filled through the bleeder so the bladder would be compressed some. This would account for the overflow you had when opened the lid. You're also right about the fluid not being able to be compressed. That's my point I'm trying to make. If the system truly was overfilled, then it would ultimately be acting the same as having the lever pulled in slightly which would case slip.

Thats the whole point of this. The hydro system is a very basic system. Thats why this really doesn't make any sense. We can talk about how the clutch works all day, but the system remains the same.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:08 PM   #336
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Maybe that bleeder is too tight and doesn't work as it should.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:11 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by oz97tj View Post
There is a bladder in the reservoir that allows for pressure difference. It'll also push any "extra" fluid out when the lid is cracked open. As you stated in an earlier post, the system is probably filled through the bleeder so the bladder would be compressed some. This would account for the overflow you had when opened the lid. You're also right about the fluid not being able to be compressed. That's my point I'm trying to make. If the system truly was overfilled, then it would ultimately be acting the same as having the lever pulled in slightly which would case slip.

Thats the whole point of this. The hydro system is a very basic system. Thats why this really doesn't make any sense. We can talk about how the clutch works all day, but the system remains the same.
So, what you are saying is that there is no typically BMW quirky aspect to anything in the design of the system? I have had plenty of clutches and slave cylinders apart, but not a BMW and not one of these, so I am more than a little reluctant to make assumptions. If we were talking about Yamaha, Suzuki or Honda, I could go along, but until I can see a service manual or have my hands on actual parts, I just don't know. Sure, on a surface level I get your point, but what has BMW done with the slipper aspect? And what else have they designed in? I don't know.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:19 PM   #338
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My bike is fine, but I am tempted to pop the top off the reservoir, just out of curiosity! Should I?
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:29 PM   #339
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My bike is fine, but I am tempted to pop the top off the reservoir, just out of curiosity! Should I?
I just did; mine was filled about the 90% point, maybe 95%, but not "pressurized". I have some erratic shifting, mostly fine, sometimes not. If not for all the discussion here I'd probably even not notice or give it a thought.
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Old 07-14-2013, 04:29 PM   #340
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My bike is fine, but I am tempted to pop the top off the reservoir, just out of curiosity! Should I?
No! Never check fluid levels on a bike!
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Old 07-14-2013, 04:54 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Emoto View Post
So, what you are saying is that there is no typically BMW quirky aspect to anything in the design of the system? I have had plenty of clutches and slave cylinders apart, but not a BMW and not one of these, so I am more than a little reluctant to make assumptions. If we were talking about Yamaha, Suzuki or Honda, I could go along, but until I can see a service manual or have my hands on actual parts, I just don't know. Sure, on a surface level I get your point, but what has BMW done with the slipper aspect? And what else have they designed in? I don't know.
The slipper clutch doesn't have anything to do with the hydro system. As for the BMW special setup, you may have a point, but it appears its all "normal."

Clearly your issue is fixed, but I just don't understand why and I'm really curious. I really can't grasp how LOWERING the fluid would help your issue.
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Old 07-14-2013, 04:54 PM   #342
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I just did; mine was filled about the 90% point, maybe 95%, but not "pressurized". I have some erratic shifting, mostly fine, sometimes not. If not for all the discussion here I'd probably even not notice or give it a thought.
Me too. Occasionally rough to 3rd but otherwise nominal.
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Old 07-14-2013, 04:55 PM   #343
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Maybe that bleeder is too tight and doesn't work as it should.
Even if that were the case, it would still only pressurize the system like already discussed which would ultimately cause slipping and not rough shifting.
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Old 07-14-2013, 05:13 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by oz97tj View Post
The slipper clutch doesn't have anything to do with the hydro system. As for the BMW special setup, you may have a point, but it appears its all "normal."

Clearly your issue is fixed, but I just don't understand why and I'm really curious. I really can't grasp how LOWERING the fluid would help your issue.
You can't envision that having the system so FULL that there is essentially no ability for fluid movement would cause issues?
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Old 07-14-2013, 06:47 PM   #345
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You can't envision that having the system so FULL that there is essentially no ability for fluid movement would cause issues?
These systems don't work by fluid movement; they work by pressure.

- Mark
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