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Old 05-13-2013, 12:11 PM   #76
shaddix
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Originally Posted by dwestly View Post
The point values vary, depending upon the criticality and difficulty of the skill being tested. For instance, single mistakes in the limited space maneuvers portion (U turns) count for the least number of points, while critical issues like crossing a line in the cornering skill are penalized more severely. However, MSF is even now getting ready to roll out a new set of BRC range training and testing curricula, which will make the skills exam more challenging. I've test-ridden a beta version of the new skills exam, and it should help in more thoroughly evaluating new riders and determining their suitability to pass the BRC.
That's what I was wondering, as I would expect total failure in the quick stop portion should be worth 20 points. And that u-turn box should basically be worth half a point even if you drop the bike.
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Old 05-13-2013, 12:14 PM   #77
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5.30 comes quickly, and by 11.00 it shows. While it was getting hot by the end of class, I think fatigue and hunger were our biggest enemies. At least we had a cooler with water and Gatorade so we stayed hydrated. Tomorrow, bananas as well.
I had a gal who couldn't do the last exercise the first day due to what she said was low blood sugar. She said her clutch hand was cramping and she looked beat. She and her husband didn't bring any snacks.
She had been doing great up to that point, so I told her I'd come in early the second day if she wanted to do the exercise she missed, before class. If she had been doing poorly up to that point I wouldn't have offered but seeing as she was one of the best students in the class I couldn't bring myself to coach her out.
She came in, completed the exercise and finished the course with zero points on the skills test!
What I'm getting at is it's a good idea to bring something to eat as for some it does get tiring taking the class.

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Originally Posted by High Country Herb View Post
The top student in my wife's class was a woman. She showed up on Saturday with her first bike; a Ducati 1098.

She got 100% on the written, and 100% on the riding test.

My wife missed 11 points, where 21 missed points are allowed. She was disappointed, but chalked it up to nervousness during the test since she did the same exercises just fine earlier in the day.
Some folks do poorly on the exercises and ace the skills test. Some do great on the exercises and fail the skills test. Nervousness plays a big part in the outcome.

11 points isn't bad at all. Your wife did well!
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Old 05-13-2013, 12:19 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
That's what I was wondering, as I would expect total failure in the quick stop portion should be worth 20 points. And that u-turn box should basically be worth half a point even if you drop the bike.
Drop the bike during the skills test and you're done. I've never seen that happen, but I'm sure it does on occasion...
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Old 05-13-2013, 12:21 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
That's what I was wondering, as I would expect total failure in the quick stop portion should be worth 20 points. And that u-turn box should basically be worth half a point even if you drop the bike.
What is "Total Failure"?

Drop the bike anytime during the test and you're done.

And yes. It does happen...
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Old 05-13-2013, 12:31 PM   #80
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total point in u-turn = 8
total points in swerve = 15
total points in quick stop = 15
total points in curve = 15
53 total points mean you should stay away from motorcycles.

it is possible to get more points in any evaluation exercise but these are the total alowable.
this is how it is in california and i suspect it is the same nationwide.
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Old 05-13-2013, 12:38 PM   #81
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Drop the bike during the skills test and you're done. I've never seen that happen, but I'm sure it does on occasion...
Not true. Happened yesterday. We'll be discussing it later, Believe me, it raised many an eyebrow, since immediately before the skills test we were told in no uncertain terms that dropping the bike would be an immediate fail.

Kinda makes me feel like the value of my passing is reduced, likely to the point of worthlessness.

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Old 05-13-2013, 12:39 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by motorat View Post
total point in u-turn = 8
total points in swerve = 15
total points in quick stop = 15
total points in curve = 15
53 total points mean you should stay away from motorcycles.

it is possible to get more points in any evaluation exercise but these are the total alowable.
this is how it is in california and i suspect it is the same nationwide.
Yup, that's accurate nationwide, although it's not normally advertised ;)

I always try to make it clear to people that the "BOX" only counts for half as many of the other evals because it's not a skill that saves your life. I try to get them to put it into perspective, because normally people freak out when they see it.

And the other ones, those points come from crossing a line, putting a foot down, going too slow, crossing an obstacle, braking beyond the standard for your speed, failing to shift to fist gear, anticipating the braking start point, not using both brakes to slow... etc etc

The point there is this; many factors accumulate to get to max points for any of the evaluations.

Advice? just do what yer Rider Coaches tell you to do. They're job is to help you pass it, not to make it hard for you to pass it. Trust them, they are fellow riders too.

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Old 05-13-2013, 12:40 PM   #83
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Drop the bike during the skills test and you're done. I've never seen that happen, but I'm sure it does on occasion...

Oh yes it does! When my son was taking his MSF course, there was a girl in his group who was constantly saying what a waste the class was... bragging that she had ridden her CBR1000RR around a parking lot once, then rode to Gainsville. She didn't need the class to improve her skills; it was just an easy way to get her endorsement.
Of course she dumped it on the quick stopping test.
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Old 05-13-2013, 01:43 PM   #84
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Not true. Happened yesterday. We'll be discussing it later, Believe me, it raised many an eyebrow, since immediately before the skills test we were told in no uncertain terms that dropping the bike would be an immediate fail.

Kinda makes me feel like the value of my passing is reduced, likely to the point of worthlessness.

MV
It is true but it sounds like your coach was making his/her own rules...after stating the correct rules. What was the extenuating circumstance to allow the rider to continue?

I should have worded the last sentence in my last post differently...I've heard of it happening but have never seen it myself. I know it does happen. I have seen dropped bikes during the exercises though.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:13 PM   #85
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It is true but it sounds like your coach was making his/her own rules...after stating the correct rules. What was the extenuating circumstance to allow the rider to continue?

I should have worded the last sentence in my last post differently...I've heard of it happening but have never seen it myself. I know it does happen. I have seen dropped bikes during the exercises though.
I can't be sure of any extenuating circumstances, as I wasn't the one doing the grading. Is being the worst rider in the group all weekend long considered an extenuating circumstance? Or perhaps being the quietest one in class that never answered a question or participated in any discussions? The guy was in my study group and never contributed. Repeated stalls during the exercises, not performing the exercises correctly... Any of these fall into the extenuating circumstance category?

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:35 PM   #86
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I can't be sure of any extenuating circumstances, as I wasn't the one doing the grading. Is being the worst rider in the group all weekend long considered an extenuating circumstance? Or perhaps being the quietest one in class that never answered a question or participated in any discussions? The guy was in my study group and never contributed. Repeated stalls during the exercises, not performing the exercises correctly... Any of these fall into the extenuating circumstance category?

MV
Nope.

I agree, given the assessment you cite, no circumstances above and beyond. Sounds like the very unfortunate situations we sometimes see... "pass em no matters what"...

I can't say this happens for sure, I'm not a Sponsor. But sometimes it seems there is the unspoken rule... "pass em, it makes us look good".

I've complained to the State about Sponsors I've worked for... doesn't make me too popular and puts my job in jeopardy. But as a fellow rider... it's my responsibility.

Cheers
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:37 PM   #87
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What is "Total Failure"?

Drop the bike anytime during the test and you're done.

And yes. It does happen...
Total failure would be stopping say way past any marker. Maybe a .3g deceleration rate in the quick stop. If I were in charge I wouldn't make dropping the bike automatic fail. I mean, who is safer, the person that takes 50 feet to stop from 20mph but doesn't drop the bike and passes the test, or the person that stops in 15 feet from 20mph but drops the bike right as they stop and fails.....
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:49 PM   #88
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Total failure would be stopping say way past any marker. Maybe a .3g deceleration rate in the quick stop. If I were in charge I wouldn't make dropping the bike automatic fail. I mean, who is safer, the person that takes 50 feet to stop from 20mph but doesn't drop the bike and passes the test, or the person that stops in 15 feet from 20mph but drops the bike right as they stop and fails.....
I certainly think there is room for improvement, but in the meanwhile, if your rules say, "drop the bike and fail", and you plainly state these rules to the class, then the class watches someone drop the bike and yet still pass, it really calls the integrity of the whole thing into debate.

As for the example you gave, I feel both are fairly dangerous. Taking too long to stop can certainly bring danger out on the road, but so can stopping and dropping the bike, leaving both you and a several hundred pound bike now in the middle of the road as obstacles for others.

MV
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:50 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
Total failure would be stopping say way past any marker. Maybe a .3g deceleration rate in the quick stop. If I were in charge I wouldn't make dropping the bike automatic fail. I mean, who is safer, the person that takes 50 feet to stop from 20mph but doesn't drop the bike and passes the test, or the person that stops in 15 feet from 20mph but drops the bike right as they stop and fails.....

And this is where things get...elegant?

I believe that the MSF standards are somewhere in the .6g range. The elegant part is that if you a student that has been doing well on the range but simply chokes on the quick stop--they're not out of the game. Likewise if they're crap and go long on stopping odds are they pooched it elsewhere as well.

As far as dropping the bike, well, during the show that's no big deal, during the test? Odds are you're probably a marginal rider. I've seen them dropped in slow tight turns, during the swerve, braking and in line when they've failed to put their feet down when stopping.

Is it fair?

Don't know but it's not a subjective test it's objective.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:56 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by shaddix View Post
That's what I was wondering, as I would expect total failure in the quick stop portion should be worth 20 points. And that u-turn box should basically be worth half a point even if you drop the bike.
I tend to avoid being specific about which failure elicits how many points. It's not spelled out in the "script" (Ridercoach range cards). You don't want people to focus on points instead of riding, and providing too much detail to some people could lead to them attempting to "game the system" rather than trying their best to demonstrate the necessary skills.

As noted by others, the U-turn box is graded lightly in comparison to cornering, braking and swerving. However, to suggest it's not a valuable skill is short-sighted. The ability to make confident, quick, limited-space manouvers has a wide range of applications beyond merely being able to U-turn in the street, some of which can definitely impact a rider's ability to avoid a hazardous situation or otherwise stay out of trouble.
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