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Old 05-14-2013, 07:45 AM   #1
roger 04 rt OP
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Wideband O2 Sensor for F800S/GS

Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Roger, thanks for jumping in and sharing your experience.

Look forward to hearing more about it [the LC-1 and other Wideband ideas]!
The plug and play kits will be for three different products:
1) a device that gets plugged in series with a stock narrowband sensor. I've logged dozens of hours with it running in parallel with the LC-1 and it is being beta tested on R1100 and R1150 (R1200 and F800 will be added soon) as I write this. We'll have some info from them soon. All units will preserve all Closed Loop Adaptation capabilities of their respective ECUs. You can read about it here:

-http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...&postcount=168

2) a dual-AFR fixed-point Wideband sensor and controller built into a cable. I've run it for tens of hours and it is off being beta tested on an R1150GS single-spark this week. Here is a photo link:

-http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...&postcount=159

3) Innovate LC-1 and MTX-L. Kits to make them plug and play, including the detailed software settings that best match each motorcycle. These are in process. Here is the main thread of my research and the installation overview. Near the end of the thread you can see the report of a well-know Danish F800S rider:

-F800S LC-1 Installation Report
-LC-1 Installation Overview for
-Wideband O2 Research Thread

Here's a shot of the R1150 Narrowband shifting prototype. I believe we will be able to get to a beta unit for the F800S/GS in a couple months:

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Old 05-14-2013, 07:48 AM   #2
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Although I've written extensively about this in the Oilhead forum, I'm adding it here to showthe benefits of installing something like an LC-1 on a another model of motorcycle. In this case it was a friend's 2007 F800S. We began discussing the project about a month ago and it is now complete. Most of the installation took place over about a week.

The F800S has a BMS-K the same as Terry's installation last month on his 2011 R1200GSA. The same software settings worked but rather than a single load resistor to satisfy the BMS-K that an O2 sensor was installed, seven 1/4 watt 1000 ohm resistors were installed in parallel which you can see in the box below(he's a very neat craftsman) . His reasoning was that this would save space and slightly warm the box insides to keep it dry.

There are also two relays added inside the box. The first was a relay to switch the power, rather than use the O2 sensor Heater+. The second was a relay controlled by a panel switch to allow selection between the LC-1's two analog outputs. He has one setting at lambda 1.00 (14.7:1, stock) and a second setting at lambda 0.94 (13.8:1, 6% richer). This was a clever idea and he can switch mixture on the fly. (He comments on below.)



Hi Roger,

I managed to finish the installation work on the bike - only a faulty USB cable and a missing driver for the USB to Serial converter took some time to figure out.

And the first road tests (100 km today) have been really promising.

First, I'm happy and proud that everything worked in the first attempt.
--Function is easy to check with out lifting the seat to see the status led - what you do is to ride the bike at a steady speed, fix the throttle, read the current fuel consumption in the extended dashboard display, and flick the switch on. Two seconds later, the fuel consumption has stabilized it self at a slightly higher level.

--Your calceulations were spot on: 4,4 l/100 km became 4,7 l and 3,3 l/100 km became 3,5 l when the richer mode was switched on. I know the dashboard reading is not 100% accurate and there's only one digit after the comma, but both tests are indicating a 6% increase in fuel consumption - or something close to that on a spot measurement.

--So I'm not seeing a reduction in fuel consumption like you do, but it may be related to the non-ethanol fuel we got over here? (Editor's Note: I believe I get about the same fuel mileage overall at 6% richer due to being in one higher gear much of the time.)

The F800 was never surging badly at constant speed, but with the richer mixture, it's definitely running smoother and feels stronger in all closed loop conditions. Quite funny actually, because now you can really feel how hard the lean burning engine was [struggling] before.

I would like to take the bike to a Dyno at some point to have a performance run on both settings to compare them. My butt feeling says that the engine is a couple of horses stronger all the way from 3500 RPM to redline, and the torque dip around 4000 RPM seems to be gone. But a dyno run will tell if my butt is right….

So it seems that your recommendation of the LC-1 complimenting my BoosterPlug installation very nicely—Open & Closed Loop. It's a real pleasure to ride the bike now with balanced richer fueling.

This setup is a keeper and is staying on my bike, and I'm happy that I have the capability to chose between fuel saving mode for cruising and power/fun mode for backroads and mountain riding.

I'm taking the bike to a rally tomorrow that will involve 70-80 km backroad riding, so I will get a good chance to test the LC-1 further.

Please accept my compliments for a bright idea and thanks for sharing it with me.

All the best.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:58 PM   #3
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Snipped from here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post

The goals of this project were to richen the stock stoichiometric AFR of 14.7:1 (a lean mixture) to something in the range of 13.8 to 14.2 (heading toward a Best Power mixture). Most motors produce more horsepower and torque; do not lean-surge; and run cooler and more reliably as you richen the mixture toward Best Power ratios.

It was an objective that both the Open Loop and Closed Loop fueling mixtures were improved. That meant that I would need to shift the Lambda sensor from 14.7 to the new target (e.g. 13.8). It was also an objective that the Motronic maintained its full function.
Roger, does running the motor in the Best Power mixture range have any impact on catalytic converter function? Or, would it be best to run these sort of mods on headers with no catalytic converter?
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Old 05-14-2013, 02:08 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Snipped from here.


Roger, does running the motor in the Best Power mixture range have any impact on catalytic converter function? Or, would it be best to run these sort of mods on headers with no catalytic converter?
You can leave the catalytic converter in place but it will not operate very efficiently below lambda of 0.96 or 0.97. Because the extra fuel remove all the remain oxygen, there is no O2 to recharge the catalyst and as a result there is little converter oxidation and pollution levels are higher (these types of mods are only for the racetrack and not street legal, check the Dynojet site). As a result the converter runs cooler than stock.

Now if you run an engine that's misfiring you are sending fuel AND oxygen to the converter and it will glow cherry red and melt the guts of the converter. But that's not way any of the mods do.

My recommendation is that riders inch down the lambda from 0.96 to 0.94 and use something in that range. Most of us play with 0.90 to 0.94 when we've got nothing better to do, but my R1150RT runs great at 0.96.
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Old 05-14-2013, 02:25 PM   #5
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Do Secondary Air Systems have any impact on these mods? It would se that they would considering how they operate.
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Old 05-15-2013, 03:46 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Do Secondary Air Systems have any impact on these mods? It would se that they would considering how they operate.
Before I could answer that question with certainty, I'd like to read a good description of the function on the F800GS. can you point me to one?
RB
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Old 05-15-2013, 03:52 AM   #7
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This is the only F800 I've supported with an LC-1 so far but there have been many Oilheads. Here is a link to an R1200GSA installation: Terry's R1200GSA Report.

Below is a mail from the F800S owner who just finished a track day.
RB
Hi Roger,
...

I'm just back from a very good track day (we got there by the bridge BTW). I had the L-1 in rich mode all day, and it was a real joy to ride the bike. Throttle control in higher RPM (above 4000) was so much smoother and precise. Especially when you just closed the throttle briefly to adjust the sped slightly before a corner (at 5000-7000 RPM), the control of the bike was much better than before.

The bike was pulling strong all the way to the redline, and I actually had a guy on a K1200S saying that he had a hard time following me in the acceleration out of corners (we later discovered that he was riding in 3rd gear where I was in second, but the F800 did well anyway.

We was divided in 9 groups from the fastest riders to the slowest, and I was in the fastest group with a BMW K1200S, a Honda CBR1100XX, Suzuki GSXR 750, Yamaha Fazer 1000, Honda CBR1000F, Honda VFR750F. I was not able to catch up with the guy on the CBR1100XX - he was really fast, but I could follow everyone else in my group. Not too bad for a 85HP F800S with a few tricks done :-)


It's been a long day, and I'm off to bed :-)
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:34 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Before I could answer that question with certainty, I'd like to read a good description of the function on the F800GS. can you point me to one?
RB

Here's description from JoelWisman of the F800 secondary air system.
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Old 05-15-2013, 10:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Do Secondary Air Systems have any impact on these mods? It would se that they would considering how they operate.
After reading the good link below, I would think that secondary air would be compatible.

My educated guess is that the secondary air only flows when rich mixture and open loop conditions are present. That should be compatible with reduced lambda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Here's description from JoelWisman of the F800 secondary air system.
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:08 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post


After reading the good link below, I would think that secondary air would be compatible.

My educated guess is that the secondary air only flows when rich mixture and open loop conditions are present. That should be compatible with reduced lambda.
Yes. As mentioned on the SAS thread, this is starting to make sense. It will be interesting to confirm the hypothesis.

Also worth noting, if this is the case it will be another mark in the 'pro' column for a wideband O2 sensor approach, and a mark in the 'con' column for the PC-V/Autotune approach.
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
The plug and play kits will be for three different products:
1) a device that gets plugged in series with a stock narrowband sensor. I've logged dozens of hours with it running in parallel with the LC-1 and it is being beta tested on R1100 and R1150 (R1200 and F800 will be added soon) as I write this. We'll have some info from them soon. All units will preserve all Closed Loop Adaptation capabilities of their respective ECUs. You can read about it here:

-http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...&postcount=168

2) a dual-AFR fixed-point Wideband sensor and controller built into a cable. I've run it for tens of hours and it is off being beta tested on an R1150GS single-spark this week. Here is a photo link:

-http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...&postcount=159

3) Innovate LC-1 and MTX-L. Kits to make them plug and play, including the detailed software settings that best match each motorcycle. These are in process. Here is the main thread of my research and the installation overview. Near the end of the thread you can see the report of a well-know Danish F800S rider:

-F800S LC-1 Installation Report
-LC-1 Installation Overview for
-Wideband O2 Research Thread
Roger, besides cost and installation complexity, can you summarize the trade-offs between #1 and #2? hacking the stock narrowband sensor, vs. dual-AFR fixed-point Wideband sensor?
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Roger, besides cost and installation complexity, can you summarize the trade-offs between #1 and #2? hacking the stock narrowband sensor, vs. dual-AFR fixed-point Wideband sensor?
Roger, there is a lot of discussion going on several threads so this question may have slipped past you so I'm bumping up.
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:12 AM   #13
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Bumped for Updates

Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Roger, there is a lot of discussion going on several threads so this question may have slipped past you so I'm bumping up.
I did miss it. Thanks.

All solutions maintain full BMS-K function and trip computer accuracy.

1) Device to shift stock Narrowband sensor. The benefits are:
-Lowest cost solution.
-Simplest to install.
-Easiest to switch back to stock setting.
-Adjustable without computer
-Narrowband O2 sensor most durable (but at 10 - 20 years, your's may need to be replaced
Limitations: Exact AFR sensitive to exhaust temperature.

2. Dual fixed-AFR Wideband Sensor
-Accuracy and stability of AFR equal to LC-1.
-install requires a simple replacement of stock sensor.
-Less costly than LC-1 plug n play kit.
-No programming or adjustment required
Limitations: No data reporting function as with LC-1

3. Innovate LC-1 Plug n Play Kit
-Easier to install than off-the-shelf LC-1
-Dual AFR channels, user programmable, optional AFR gauge.
-Second channel can be set leaner than stock for Best Economy or very rich for Best Power.
-Comes pre-programmed.
-Includes OEM connectors.
-Fully user programmable from 12.5:1 to 16.2:1
-Datalogging diagnostic capability and software package.
-Can be periodically calibrated for precision AFR.
Limitations: None
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:19 PM   #14
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Thought I'd provide some updates on what's been going on lately.

There are three beta devices circling their way around the US and Canada—r1100, R1150s. All are progressing very well.

I took delivery of an R1200 wiring harness and harvested 4 female O2 connectors so I can build beta units for R1200s and F800s soon.

For the Narrowband device I expect to get production approval units this week.

On My R1150RT with LC-1
I added a small switch to my lc-1 connector box. The switch has three positions: off (so I can run open loop when I want), connect to LC-1 analog 1, and connect to LC-1 analog 2 (analog 2 is usually for the gauge but can be programmed like analog 1). The switch connects to the black (O2+) wire in the O2 connector cable. This allows me to do an a/b comparison of two different mixtures with just a switch.

I rode at lambda=1 which is 14.7:1, I'm doing it for comparison testing. I'll also try a very lean setting soon like 16.2:1 to measure economy.

Here is an LC-1 report from a recent self-done implementation.

"I'm really amazed by the performance of the motor with the LC-1. Peoples who don't try it are lacking something. I loved the old BMW powered with carburated motors because they had torque. Now with the LC-1 I have this feeling. Today I went for a high speed ride and I would be surprised to look at the time required to do 1/4 of miles. The motor revs fastly with authority. I'm in love with my bike.

My AFR is settled at 0.925 and 0.915.

The only drawback is idling which seems overly rich when it is cold and with the fast idle. The motor doesn't like to be kept at idle when cold because after some time it doesn't idle smoothly until I open the throttle to rev the bike. As stated I suspect overly rich mixture when cold and the exhaust gas stinks.

Thanks a lot for everything."
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:56 PM   #15
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Thanks for the detailed explanation Roger and the progress update.

For #1 and #2, how will the operator switch between the fixed AFP options?
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