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Old 02-02-2014, 09:07 AM   #106
DirtJack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyarnall View Post
I am a complete noob with regard to CAN-bus, but my modest experiences with my 1190 thus far suggest that changing things can be problematic.

For instance, I am trying to install a Kisan head light modulator in my 1190 Adv without success thus far. As Kisan explains it to me, there is a "hand shaking" process that goes on during each "boot up", (starting the engine), with every feature - device in the system. If the hand shaking does not return the "good to go" data it is looking for, it throws a failure notice on the console screen and may prevent the "feature" from working.

With the Headlight modulator, I get a "hi beam failure", and the high beam stops working, even though the bulb is in the circuit. Kisan is working on getting the hand shake thing squared away, but it makes me think that popping in an LED bulb replacement may not be as easy as it seems. I am sure the LED will draw less power and that may signal a failure to the CAN-bus. Hope I am wrong, but just a heads up.

Somewhat related, I installed the KTM heated grips on the 1190 yesterday. They are basically plug and play, electrically speaking, and then it is just a matter of going into the menu and turning the grips "on" so the computer is made aware of them. With the bike back outside, I fired it up just to hear it run... (tough winter here... no riding yet!), only to find a "service" fault flashing on the screen. Everything seemed to work and run fine, but the fault would not go away. A short ride to the mailbox did not clear it either.

My nephew - KTM dealer suggested pulling the pos lead off the battery, (bike off, of course), and shorting it to ground for a few seconds. Voila, no more fault! I have to believe that the fault was registered when I was doing a live chat diagnostics with the Kisan folks last week rather than anything I did installing the grips, but that is only conjecture on my part.

There are some cool benefits to my new computerized motorcycle, but it holds its share of mysteries!

I also have more casual info about the speedo calibration issue, but I am waiting for some documentation from my nephew before I post anything.
Well, here's what I do for clearing the service message. Something similar can be done for other faults perhaps. Of course, if the fault is still occurring, clearing it won't help as it will just show up as a fault again.
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Old 02-02-2014, 09:40 AM   #107
strider.deano
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyarnall View Post
I am a complete noob with regard to CAN-bus, but my modest experiences with my 1190 thus far suggest that changing things can be problematic.



I also have more casual info about the speedo calibration issue, but I am waiting for some documentation from my nephew before I post anything.
Pyarnall,
The Can-Bus issues we are seeing as electronic mods are attempted is nothing new to the BMW crowd. It's a consequence of BMW's and KTM's decision to implement Can-Bus the way they have. Triumph chose to implement Can-Bus without integrating all of the electrical components. Electrical upgrades to my 800XC were pretty simple.

Having said that.....the speedo on the 800XC was off by 10% (the odo was spot on) and there was nothing Triumph's Can-Bus could do about it. I'm hopeful that KTM will have a fix for the speedo and odo issues. I would think that the NHTSA or the DOT would have issue with the odo showing incorrect miles.

Thanks to all you guys that are sharing your early adoption pains. My Orangecycle arrives in March. You guys are expected to have all this stuff figured out by then.....
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Old 02-02-2014, 10:24 AM   #108
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Hi Strider,

Your comments regarding the speedo - odo strike a cord with a few bits of info my dealer - nephew mentioned in a quick phone call the other day. According to his tech contact at KTM, the speedo error has an allowed tolerance by regulation which, as I recall, can be up to 10% over, but never under. It seems the lawyers are the cause of the calibration errors which are implemented by design. However, the error is NOT introduced into the odo, which IS accurate, at least to a much tighter tolerance, tire circumference differences not withstanding. This fits with what you have experienced.

The tech would not confirm if the speedo can be re-calibrated via the KTM diagnostic tool and my nephew has not had the time to determine that one way or the other yet. I am still hoping that it can be re calibrated... it is astonishing to me as an engineer that a critical instrument is purposely configured to read erroneously. My car and truck are much more accurate, (in fact the car reads about 1.5 slow at 75 according to my GPS), so I just don't get it.

Perhaps some enterprising guy out there will offer a simple speed display that reads off the same disc sensor. If it turns out there is no ability to correct the error via the "computer", I would certainly buy one. A nice little readout that could be positioned up on the top of the windscreen more in the normal sight view would be VERY nice.
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Old 02-02-2014, 11:00 AM   #109
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I use a GPS speedo app on my phone.
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Old 02-02-2014, 01:39 PM   #110
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Eek More on speedo cal

My KTM dealer (and my nephew), sent me the following which is excerpted from an email to my nephew from his KTM tech contact...

No this is not possible by any of us. Yes by law we are allowed up to 10% speedo readout on the high side of actual speed.
This does not actually affect the ODO reading either so its not like it will falsely increase the mileage on the ODO.

Allowed tolerance by law is (+ 10% + 4 km/h) e.g. at 100 km/h in true showing 114 km/h on the dashboard is the max tolerance. From legal point we are obliged to show EVERYTIME MORE, never less speed than in true. Therefore we add a correction factor to be over the whole speed range (0 - 270 km/h) within the legal limits. TRIP1/2, ODO, AVERAGE SPEED are calculated from the raw value coming from the very precise measuring front ABS-sensor, WITHOUT this correction factor!
Speed shown on the dashboard and the distance values are NOT RELATED!


The second paragraph wording is a bit confusing, but the gist of this seems to be that the odometer is not affected and there is no way to change the "correction factor". What a stupid choice of words. I think the more accurate description would be "intentional error factor". I guess that's what happens when lawyers and bean counters are in charge. Too bad.
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Old 02-02-2014, 01:48 PM   #111
strider.deano
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Yes this is too bad. But it is the norm for every bike I've owned.
It does provide a little saving grace. I generally ride 10 over at highway speeds and 5 over everywhere else. This keeps me legal with this bike.
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Old 02-02-2014, 02:03 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Matson View Post
Just got my Grey 1190 and I am amazed, it feels lighter than my 950 and turns much sharper. Fueling is very nice it feels more like a well set up carbed bike than fuel injection, no sharp cut off as it idles down. The throttle is to stiff and there is some heat under the seat, I just ordered a wings short so that may help. The heat is not really that bad, rode about 50 miles today in 80 temps (SoCal winter) and if your moving its not a big deal. Seat felt good also. Took the canister out of from under the rest seat and the tool kit fits in there now. Maintenance looks way easier than the 950 also which is nice. fit and finish is very nice except for the little glove box in the dash thats a joke! Can't find out how to adjust the headlight, it's a tad low, they are sending me the manual didn't have it with the bike. The electronic adjustments are so easy and really work, the brakes and motor are just incredible! Only problem is my face hurts from all the grinning I have been doing for the last two days.
Doug M, when you say you took the canister out what does that mean? Did you put it elsewhere (I doubt it) and if you replumbed or disconnected hoses, etc, can you tell us exactly what you did? Any complications? I've read several 'canisterectomies' on KTM twins but none on the US 1190. Thanks.
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Old 02-02-2014, 02:06 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyarnall View Post

Perhaps some enterprising guy out there will offer a simple speed display that reads off the same disc sensor
they make a speedohealer that fits the 990 and rc8 so that could be a possibility. I installed one once and it was plug and play and simple to set up. It was odd in use though as i was so accustomed to just adding x mph in my head with most bikes I've had
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Old 02-02-2014, 03:50 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayneski View Post
Doug M, when you say you took the canister out what does that mean? Did you put it elsewhere (I doubt it) and if you replumbed or disconnected hoses, etc, can you tell us exactly what you did? Any complications? I've read several 'canisterectomies' on KTM twins but none on the US 1190. Thanks.
On mine I removed the canister and just left the lines under the seat. I did put an inline fuel filter on the one line that actually has some suction sometimes just to keep the air somewhat clean. I plan on removing them all together the nest time I have the tank and side panels off.
I haven't noticed any problems so far.
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Old 02-02-2014, 06:42 PM   #115
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The line which goes to the center connection on the canister is the evacuation line. This line connects to the purge valve under the tank. This line can be plugged at the valve if you leave the valve and switch on the bike.

The line which goes to the edge connection on the canister is the fuel tank vent line which goes to the right hand side of the filler neck. I shortened this line and re-routed it beside the other 3 lines which exit in front of the stator on the left side of the motor. One of those lines drains excess fuel which goes over the top of the filler neck of the tank.

For the time being I removed the canister and left the purge valve connected after plugging the purge line with a rubber cap. Has anyone tried removing the valve and replacing its electrical connection with a 22K Ohm 1/4 watt resistor (this worked on 690E/R and 990 bikes)?
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Old 02-02-2014, 10:24 PM   #116
paturoa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyarnall View Post
I am a complete noob with regard to CAN-bus, but my modest experiences with my 1190 thus far suggest that changing things can be problematic.

For instance, I am trying to install a Kisan head light modulator in my 1190 Adv without success thus far. As Kisan explains it to me, there is a "hand shaking" process that goes on during each "boot up", (starting the engine), with every feature - device in the system. If the hand shaking does not return the "good to go" data it is looking for, it throws a failure notice on the console screen and may prevent the "feature" from working.

With the Headlight modulator, I get a "hi beam failure", and the high beam stops working, even though the bulb is in the circuit. Kisan is working on getting the hand shake thing squared away, but it makes me think that popping in an LED bulb replacement may not be as easy as it seems. I am sure the LED will draw less power and that may signal a failure to the CAN-bus. Hope I am wrong, but just a heads up.

Somewhat related, I installed the KTM heated grips on the 1190 yesterday. They are basically plug and play, electrically speaking, and then it is just a matter of going into the menu and turning the grips "on" so the computer is made aware of them. With the bike back outside, I fired it up just to hear it run... (tough winter here... no riding yet!), only to find a "service" fault flashing on the screen. Everything seemed to work and run fine, but the fault would not go away. A short ride to the mailbox did not clear it either.

My nephew - KTM dealer suggested pulling the pos lead off the battery, (bike off, of course), and shorting it to ground for a few seconds. Voila, no more fault! I have to believe that the fault was registered when I was doing a live chat diagnostics with the Kisan folks last week rather than anything I did installing the grips, but that is only conjecture on my part.

There are some cool benefits to my new computerized motorcycle, but it holds its share of mysteries!

I also have more casual info about the speedo calibration issue, but I am waiting for some documentation from my nephew before I post anything.
This specific issue is unlikely to be related to the canbus itself. (Almost) all of the lights etc are wired directly from the MCU/ECU units. The lights themselves are "ignorant" or passive devices so there is no "good to go" from the bulbs.

I suspect that our friends at KTM have programmed the MCU to do start up / switch checks from the various MC units to check that the lights et al are working. The device you have installed probaly doesn't look like a working lightbulb for the test that is run.

So the decision to run the lights from a MCU rather than a relay is the cause.


Schemantics I know, but is important.
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Old 02-02-2014, 10:26 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by MookieBlaylock View Post
they make a speedohealer that fits the 990 and rc8 so that could be a possibility. I installed one once and it was plug and play and simple to set up. It was odd in use though as i was so accustomed to just adding x mph in my head with most bikes I've had
No good on the 1190 as the speed is calculated from the front ABS sensor in the canbus system. I'd not recommend ferking with the ABS sensor stuff.
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Old 02-02-2014, 10:43 PM   #118
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simply run a phone app such as trapster or any gps speed indicator and error is no longer a bother on any bikes, they're all off
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Old 02-03-2014, 04:14 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyarnall View Post
My KTM dealer (and my nephew), sent me the following which is excerpted from an email to my nephew from his KTM tech contact...

No this is not possible by any of us. Yes by law we are allowed up to 10% speedo readout on the high side of actual speed.
This does not actually affect the ODO reading either so its not like it will falsely increase the mileage on the ODO.

Allowed tolerance by law is (+ 10% + 4 km/h) e.g. at 100 km/h in true showing 114 km/h on the dashboard is the max tolerance. From legal point we are obliged to show EVERYTIME MORE, never less speed than in true. Therefore we add a correction factor to be over the whole speed range (0 - 270 km/h) within the legal limits. TRIP1/2, ODO, AVERAGE SPEED are calculated from the raw value coming from the very precise measuring front ABS-sensor, WITHOUT this correction factor!
Speed shown on the dashboard and the distance values are NOT RELATED!


The second paragraph wording is a bit confusing, but the gist of this seems to be that the odometer is not affected and there is no way to change the "correction factor". What a stupid choice of words. I think the more accurate description would be "intentional error factor". I guess that's what happens when lawyers and bean counters are in charge. Too bad.
This is not the case from my experience. Today I did a trip that was 256km by google maps. My odo said 275km ... 9% out. My speedo says 110 at 100 on gps. So the whole lot is 9 or 10% out. Also I reset trip 2 at 80kph and sat on 80kph for over 10km (9km really) and the average speed said 80.
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:03 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Nerb View Post
This is not the case from my experience. Today I did a trip that was 256km by google maps. My odo said 275km ... 9% out. My speedo says 110 at 100 on gps. So the whole lot is 9 or 10% out. Also I reset trip 2 at 80kph and sat on 80kph for over 10km (9km really) and the average speed said 80.
GPS ODO values will always be a little less than actual distance traveled as they are the sum of straight line distances between the sampled GPS locations. If the sampling rate is constant, then the error will be greater at higher speeds and curvy roads. Virtually error free (except for GPS accuracy -- usually less than 1%) if you only ride perfectly straight line roads, no wait, we ride KTMs.

Google Maps and Google Earth compute distances in a similar fashion, so they will estimate distance generally a little less than an accurate wheel odometer.
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