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Old 05-25-2013, 07:49 AM   #16
Seth S
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Also...one thing that made the Australian event very friendly was that there was no night racing. The stages were designed to be finished in the afternoon and if it was getting dark they would force bikes to bail and ride back to bivouac on a road or with a recovery vehicle.

They also allowed competitors to restart the event if they did not finish one day but with a substantial penalty.
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Old 05-25-2013, 10:21 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
I’m working on a plan for a new cross-country rally in Northern Mexico, currently named the Diabolical Rally. It's a big-time real race, not another of my typical practice/training rides. I’m trying to decide a number of things. What do you want in a rally? What are your thoughts and opinions on these questions?

1. How many days of racing would you like? Remember there’s also a registration/tech day ahead of the first race day, and probably a half day after the final race day for awards.

About 4 days of racing. With travel to and from the rally, it would be nice to keep overall timing to about a week.

2. How many hours of racing per day (assuming moderate to extremely challenging terrain)?

About 6 - 8 hours of riding per day, including liaisons if used. Maybe shorter racing days if the terrain gets really challenging.

3. How difficult should the navigation be? Different difficulty on each day?

Moderately challenging.

4. How difficult should the terrain be? Different on each day?

Would like to see terrain oriented towards a Dakar-style rally bike, rather than a Baja race bike. But most important is to describe it clearly. If the course is meant for smaller dirt bikes, that will be fine but then that's what I would want to bring to race with.

5. Would you like zero, one, or two optional short non-timed “practice” stages to get used to the roadbooks, unique navigation, and unique terrain in the area? Would you come one or two days early to do the practice stage(s)?

Maybe organize a 1 or 2 day practice session a month ahead of the rally. I'm sure that's tougher logistically.

6. Would you like to camp in a bivouac, Dakar style, or pay for hotel rooms a ways away from the start/finish?

I'm not particular. Dakar bivouac style would be kind of neat, but personally I don't mind the comfort of a hotel bed either.

7. Are paved liaison sections a major pain, or a minor inconvenience? How far is too far if you have a morning and evening paved liaison?

Liaisons are fine. Looking for a Dakar-style experience for an amateur rider, and liaisons are part of the real deal.

8. Which would you prefer:
...a. Moving bivouac (i.e. Dakar and NORRA Mexican 1000, more liaisons, more taco stands).
...b. Fixed bivouac (stationary camp, no need for chase crew, no long drive back to the border after you're done).

No preference. Might be easier for support to not have to move every day.

9. Would you be willing to pay 3 times more if it was in Western USA instead of Northern Mexico?

Would like to seen an event in Western US, but Baja is just fine as well. Personally, the cost for the event is not a deal breaker - it's more about timing, logistics, obtaining support help, etc.

10. What could be done to attract traditional Baja racers without turning it into another SCORE race?

Not sure. I'm just a strong intermediate, amateur rider looking for a challenging but fun Dakar-type experience. Don't mind some really challenging terrain, but want to have the right bike for it. I think you have more growth from the more advanced dual-sport crowd looking for a challenge like a rally, then the Baja race crowd that's looking to go all-out without navigation.

How many of you would want in on the Diabolical Rally (assuming Mexico)? We’re aiming for no limits on entry numbers, but we need to get an idea how much interest there is.
I'm really interested. It's all about timing for me, and being able to work it into my schedule.

As mentioned above, I would really like the Dakar-style experience for amateurs. Challenge is fine, but I'm not looking for the most radical terrain imaginable. I'm looking for the combination of navigation, terrain, and multiple days that provides me a good chance of finishing, but also a sense of accomplishment if I do finish. I'd like to see it oriented towards Dakar-style rally bikes, but would be happy to bring a smaller bike if that's what the course calls for.

Thanks ahead of time for all the effort if this comes about!!!
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Old 05-25-2013, 11:56 AM   #18
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Wow, lots of great feedback!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticGS View Post
Would like to seen an event in Western US, but Baja is just fine as well.
We're not looking in Baja. Scotty's Baja Rally and NORRA have that covered. I'm looking to create a different type of experience. Diabolical will be on roads and open (roadless) terrain where there has never been off-road racing. Some of the roads we saw in scouting and prerunning don't look to have been used in decades. Others are more commonly used, but not for racing.

We were chased down during our bike prerun by an ejido owner asking what we were up to, since he never sees anyone in that desolate area. It turns out his son is a big Baja racing fan, so that 400,000 acre slice just became open for rally!!! On a later trip in a Dakar car we were stopped at gunpoint in a different remote area. Fortunately that same big ejido owner was with us, and smoothed things out. It's a unique challenge trying to get this done in an area unknown to racing.

Two weeks ago I was out there with Darren Skilton (many time Dakar car finisher). He was almost drooling over some of the terrain, saying “this is just like Dakar”. In general, the terrain is not enduro style tight technical. It’s more open, higher speed. Enduro style is not the only way to make things difficult though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baja Dad View Post
Have the event in March ( spring Break for most schools )
Our current target is around March/April/May. We were aiming for October, but Scotty slipped the Baja Rally in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motorfiets View Post
I know the heat is an issue but can we PLEASE have a rally during the summer... every single rally whether local or international is during the school year... which SUCKS
Have you been off-roading in the desert in 115 summer degree heat? That's a death wish! I've tried a few times, and learned my lesson. It WOULD be "diabolical", but nobody would come back the next year. Maybe you can talk RMS Dave into doing a rally school, or pry a few of the training roadbooks out of me and do your own practice ride in the Death Valley & Pahrump area on your own schedule?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty Breauxman View Post
Oh yea count me in. March
What???, I'm putting you to WORK on this one. If you want to race, you get a 5 minute penalty right from the start because you have too much inside information!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth S View Post
...They also allowed competitors to restart the event if they did not finish one day but with a substantial penalty.
That will for sure be the way we do it.
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Old 05-25-2013, 12:41 PM   #19
GalacticGS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
Wow, lots of great feedback!

We're not looking in Baja. Scotty's Baja Rally and NORRA have that covered. I'm looking to create a different type of experience. Diabolical will be on roads and open (roadless) terrain where there has never been off-road racing. Some of the roads we saw in scouting and prerunning don't look to have been used in decades. Others are more commonly used, but not for racing.

OK, I misunderstood but that sounds great!

Looking forward to hearing more - and see what others are interested in as well...
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Old 05-25-2013, 01:23 PM   #20
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so mainland mex then?
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Old 05-25-2013, 02:40 PM   #21
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Just saw this thread, Scott I know you will come up with a diabollical roadbook rally wherever it is going to be held. Im excited and Im in. A few points to ponder.
For us eastcoasters in particular 4,5 or 6 day event will be optimal. (remember we have to travel cross country twice)
Hotels are nice at the end of a hard day, but maybe a bivouac one or two nights just to get the true feeling of a dakar style multi-day rally.
Terrain, Im not really concerned about, Ive ridden your roadbooks and they are all fantastic. You would probably draw more competitors if the route is bigger bike friendly or if you cant help yourself , throw in an optional technical section for those interested.
Damn youve got me all excited.
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Old 05-27-2013, 05:20 PM   #22
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1. How many days of racing would you like? Remember there’s also a registration/tech day ahead of the first race day, and probably a half day after the final race day for awards.
4 days: getting time off work isn't easy

2. How many hours of racing per day (assuming moderate to extremely challenging terrain)?
6-8 of racing terrain, maybe another hour of liason back to bivvy

3. How difficult should the navigation be? Different difficulty on each day?
Mix it up but it should never be terribly easy.
4. How difficult should the terrain be? Different on each day?
It should be passable by a proper rally bike

5. Would you like zero, one, or two optional short non-timed “practice” stages to get used to the roadbooks, unique navigation, and unique terrain in the area? Would you come one or two days early to do the practice stage(s)?
I wouldn't want any extra days, but make them available if enough people do make it available to them
6. Would you like to camp in a bivouac, Dakar style, or pay for hotel rooms a ways away from the start/finish?
Bivvy

7. Are paved liaison sections a major pain, or a minor inconvenience? How far is too far if you have a morning and evening paved liaison?
minor inconvenience: more than an hour of liason isn't much fun

8. Which would you prefer:
...a. Moving bivouac (i.e. Dakar and NORRA Mexican 1000, more liaisons, more taco stands).
...b. Fixed bivouac (stationary camp, no need for chase crew, no long drive back to the border after you're done).
As others have said either fixed or maybe move it once. Setting up camp after riding 9+hrs blows

9. Would you be willing to pay 3 times more if it was in Western USA instead of Northern Mexico?
That depends on the final reg fee. $1500 to race in the US? Sure, $4500? Not so much.
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Old 05-28-2013, 05:49 AM   #23
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Exciting!

FWIW, I'm doing the Baja rally because you made the roadbooks, I have great faith in your judgment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
1. How many days of racing would you like? Remember there’s also a registration/tech day ahead of the first race day, and probably a half day after the final race day for awards.

4-5 is ideal, I think. Fewer doesn't get the whole experience, more becomes logistically challenging.

2. How many hours of racing per day (assuming moderate to extremely challenging terrain)?

Fundamentally, what is the purpose of the rally? Challenge or enjoyment?

My preference would be for longer/ harder, with time checked bail outs. The men make all the sections, the boys get time limited out, bail to a shortcut, and start the next day with a penalty. Anyone who makes all the sections beats anyone who missed any of them.

~6-8 hours is a Dakar stage for someone who is on it, I can't see it being longer than that. But please feel free to add Liaison to get us to interesting places!

3. How difficult should the navigation be? Different difficulty on each day?

Should depend on the terrain. Organically, some places are easier, some are harder, no need to manipulate that.

4. How difficult should the terrain be? Different on each day?

Hard/ sure.

5. Would you like zero, one, or two optional short non-timed “practice” stages to get used to the roadbooks, unique navigation, and unique terrain in the area? Would you come one or two days early to do the practice stage(s)?

Zero, depends.

6. Would you like to camp in a bivouac, Dakar style, or pay for hotel rooms a ways away from the start/finish?

Depends/ mix of would be ideal. The Amitie had 4-5 nights in hotels, 2-3 camping, and that was nice. Being just the rally camped somewhere in the desert really brought us together, getting a shower after a while was most welcome.

7. Are paved liaison sections a major pain, or a minor inconvenience? How far is too far if you have a morning and evening paved liaison?

Part of rally, should be included, 800km at a whack seemed like too far.

8. Which would you prefer:
...a. Moving bivouac (i.e. Dakar and NORRA Mexican 1000, more liaisons, more taco stands).
...b. Fixed bivouac (stationary camp, no need
for chase crew, no long drive back to the border after you're done).

Whatever the terrain demands.

9. Would you be willing to pay 3 times more if it was in Western USA instead of Northern Mexico?

No.

10. What could be done to attract traditional Baja racers without turning it into another SCORE race?

I think the opportunity is as much with people who used to race timekeeping enduros, and miss that, as it is with brain dead San Bernadino methhead SCORE whackos (obviously, there are lots more great people that race SCORE, but I don't think the mental challenge of rally is going to appeal to them all).

I'd share it with people at the D37 enduros, etc, and try to get some of the folks who won't race SCORE because they don't want to tangle with trophy trucks involved.
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:51 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post

1. How many days of racing would you like? Remember there’s also a registration/tech day ahead of the first race day, and probably a half day after the final race day for awards.

Expanding a bit more: Lenth of rally...its should either be a weekend long so minimal time is needed to take off...or just be a full week long because many of us are going to travel from across country so if I am taking the time off I might as well have a long event.


2. How many hours of racing per day (assuming moderate to extremely challenging terrain)?
The Australian days were up at 5 to stretch, bathroom, get suited up, eat, double check bike, roll off the line around 7 or 8 am depending on the day. We were all back in by 6 at night with the fastest in around 2pm. This worked well.


3. How difficult should the navigation be? Different difficulty on each day?
[COLOR="rgb(72, 209, 204)"]depends on how long the stages are. If it is crazy difficult navigation and 400 miles of riding many people will be lost or stuck out at dark. My trip out in 2007 was my first time navigating but it was tricky enough given it was all new terrain (used to trees and rivers and rocks and trail junctions. Nevada was faint rabbit trails, non descript washes etc. Your idea of difficult navigation and mine might differ. Perhaps mix things up. Start out with some faster less technical days to get people used to the terrain and days and then start amping up the navigation...so people start to worry when the day is short.. [/COLOR]

4. How difficult should the terrain be? Different on each day?

5. Would you like zero, one, or two optional short non-timed “practice” stages to get used to the roadbooks, unique navigation, and unique terrain in the area? Would you come one or two days early to do the practice stage(s)?

[COLOR="rgb(72, 209, 204)"]depends on where and when the race is. a practise stage would be handy but traveling 3000 miles cross country takes a while so a few extra days for practise might not be in the schedule. [/COLOR]


6. Would you like to camp in a bivouac, Dakar style, or pay for hotel rooms a ways away from the start/finish?

[COLOR="rgb(72, 209, 204)"]Dakar style would be fine...especially if one of those shower/bathroom trucks is on hand. [/COLOR]


7. Are paved liaison sections a major pain, or a minor inconvenience? How far is too far if you have a morning and evening paved liaison?
[COLOR="rgb(72, 209, 204)"]an hour on each end is bearable. When they get longer then that they really start getting tedious[/COLOR]

8. Which would you prefer:
...a. Moving bivouac (i.e. Dakar and NORRA Mexican 1000, more liaisons, more taco stands).
...b. Fixed bivouac (stationary camp, no need for chase crew, no long drive back to the border after you're done).
9. Would you be willing to pay 3 times more if it was in Western USA instead of Northern Mexico?
[COLOR="rgb(72, 209, 204)"]Possibly as it would ease in travel and logistics to get there. [/COLOR]


10. What could be done to attract traditional Baja racers without turning it into another SCORE race?

How many of you would want in on the Diabolical Rally (assuming Mexico)? We’re aiming for no limits on entry numbers, but we need to get an idea how much interest there is.
[COLOR="rgb(72, 209, 204)"]It sounds good right now. Dates and costs will have to be evaluated when the time comes. It would certainely be easier to shipping everything to another country. [/COLOR]
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:05 AM   #25
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As a relatively new rally guy:

6 days
no practice
day one is a prologue of say, 30-50 miles to sort out the starting order for the rally proper
focus on navigation not speed
bivuouac mainly with a hotel in the the middle
moving bivuouac
tough as in distance rather than terrain, but navigation designed to prevent full throttle - having said that, some decent fast bits if there is open terrain
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:31 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neduro View Post
FWIW, I'm doing the Baja rally because you made the roadbooks, I have great faith in your judgment.
Scotty B is doing all his own roadbooks for the Baja Rally, using Rally Navigator. My job at that race is to follow everyone's SPOTs for safety, and verify everyone stayed on the course by checking their recorded GPS tracks at the finish.

I will be doing all the roadbooks for Diabolical. Due to the terrain, they will be a bit different than most of my previous roadbooks. At the moment, the way the terrain looks, they could be 30% to 50% HP! That's partly why I want to provide a practice stage. This particular HP stuff may be a new type of challenge for some.
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:17 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
At the moment, the way the terrain looks, they could be 30% to 50% HP!
Ahhhh....now I know why its called the Diabolical Rally


the Oracle HogWild has spoken and the minions are gathering.....


I'm in!
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:31 PM   #28
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Not too far off topic BUT if you need ground support I'd like to volunteer. I'm way too old and slow to even want to race it.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:50 PM   #29
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My preferences below, but please do what it takes. I'll be there.

1. 5 days racing. Please give me lots of notice so that I can get the time off. I really wish I could spend more time. If it were not for my time constraints, I'd say 20 days of racing or more.
2. 10-24. Everyone should have to race in the dark, so start some stages at 3AM.
3. Not impossible.
4. Mix easy rest sections with short hard technical challenges.
5. I wouldn't be able to come early.
6. Tent no more than 10 feet from my bike. Preferably out in the desert. No complications like hotels or a town.
7. Long stupid mind-numbing liaisons are part of rally racing.
8. Does not matter. Whatever works best for you.
9. I'd rather not.
10. Who cares? Do it right and the right people will come.

Scott, you make the best routes I've ever ridden, even if they sometimes frustrate the hell out of me. This will be the ride of a lifetime. Please don't dumb it down. Participants should know that they've been on a real rally.

fun fun
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:49 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by lastplace View Post
Scott, you make the best routes I've ever ridden, even if they sometimes frustrate the hell out of me. This will be the ride of a lifetime. Please don't dumb it down. Participants should know that they've been on a real rally.
Charlie, it won't get dumbed down.

The first year we do have to be a bit careful not to overdo the difficulty and complexity. I tend to bite off more than is reasonable, and learn the hard way when we get back from many preruns well after dark. I know in this desert I can wipe everyone out with a 100 mile stage that is as smooth as a baby’s butt! In prerunning, a 55 mile stage took the better part of a day and destroyed one motor. Another day we did 220 miles in a car, had an hour fish taco lunch break, and finished the route and dinner before the sun went down. It’s a little hard to judge how it will go until you guys get out there.

I have one stage in mind that has a 2 page roadbook that would take all day to ride. Skilton said it would be too gnarly for the cars. But the real challenge is that it goes right through an incredible protected nature preserve. So, . . . I’m going to do everything I can to make that one happen. If not the first year, then possibly the second! Maybe the cars can do a different route that day, or cut it in half for them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofy1 View Post
Not too far off topic BUT if you need ground support I'd like to volunteer. I'm way too old and slow to even want to race it.
Can you bring a fire engine siren, and kick it off in the bivouac at 2:00am each morning, just for the fun of it?
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