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Old 09-16-2013, 05:10 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baja Dad View Post
Any new news??????
I have a new avatar!

If we're lucky we'll have some news in a couple of weeks. Until then I have to keep the lid on.
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:27 PM   #62
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I'M IN!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
I’m working on a plan for a new cross-country rally in Northern Mexico, currently named the Diabolical Rally. It's a big-time real race, not another of my typical practice/training rides. I’m trying to decide a number of things. What do you want in a rally? What are your thoughts and opinions on these questions?

1. How many days of racing would you like? Remember there’s also a registration/tech day ahead of the first race day, and probably a half day after the final race day for awards.

5 days of actuall racing. If land owners and the powers that be can be "talked in" to 3 days then 2 more shooooooooould be do-able.

2. How many hours of racing per day (assuming moderate to extremely
challenging terrain)?

4-6 maybe?

3. How difficult should the navigation be? Different difficulty on each day?

I would like to see difficulty remain the same throughout the race. Might be a good way to get people "hooked" on the sport.

4. How difficult should the terrain be? Different on each day?

Terrain difficulty should change day to day - those with better nav skills could have their day and those with better riding skills can have theirs.


5. Would you like zero, one, or two optional short non-timed “practice” stages to get used to the roadbooks, unique navigation, and unique terrain in the area? Would you come one or two days early to do the practice stage(s)?

Depending on cost I would come 2 days early. A one or two day practice stage-day(s) would be great!

6. Would you like to camp in a bivouac, Dakar style, or pay for hotel rooms a ways away from the start/finish?

Bivouac!

7. Are paved liaison sections a major pain, or a minor inconvenience? How far is too far if you have a morning and evening paved liaison?

I don't know the answer here. I just wanna race a multi-day rally on a motorcycle that doesn't require a trip over-seas.

8. Which would you prefer:
...a. Moving bivouac (i.e. Dakar and NORRA Mexican 1000, more liaisons, more taco stands).
...b. Fixed bivouac (stationary camp, no need for chase crew, no long drive back to the border after you're done).

Fixed certainly sounds easiest but whatever would have to happen to make this event happen may have to happen. (A lot of "happens" in that statement!)

9. Would you be willing to pay 3 times more if it was in Western USA instead of Northern Mexico?

I would looooooooooooooooooooove this to happen in the US. I'd pay more I think.

10. What could be done to attract traditional Baja racers without turning it into another SCORE race?

You'd think that any man or woman that likes to race motorcycles off road would be interested in another race on the calendar. What is it about these guys that makes them more difficult to market to?

How many of you would want in on the Diabolical Rally (assuming Mexico)? We’re aiming for no limits on entry numbers, but we need to get an idea how much interest there is.
I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay in!
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:10 PM   #63
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1. 7 days

2. 7 to 10 hrs

3. you write the road book !

4. Varied terrain

5. 0 timed roadbook practice stages but a special stage to set the start times

6. Camp all the way

7. too far is 100 miles but 75 to 80 is doable(on either side or both)

8. a couple fixed biv's ( or on return) and the others spread along

9. NO

10. let them be a sweep rider/volunteer with a roadbook .. or dont worry as soon Kurt Casselli wins this year every dez racer will want to try !

11. Early full pay entry means $$"s off !

12. Can't wait.

13. I never followed rules too much...
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Old 09-17-2013, 02:41 PM   #64
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Thanks for doing this, BTW.
I am excited to see this and interested in taking a stab at this in 2014 or 2015 depending on personal circumstances. A few thoughts: Call me informed or call me stupid, but I'm not concerned about the narco scene in Northern Mexico for an event such as this provided that the route organizers are personally informed and experienced with the territory. The idea of holding it in Mexico to cut down on cost and red tape is a reasonable approach for sure. One day I would like to see something like this unfold in the Western USA and I would be very happy participating in the initial race series and contributing where possible to see this come home.

answers below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
1. How many days of racing would you like? Remember there’s also a registration/tech day ahead of the first race day, and probably a half day after the final race day for awards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild



initially a 3-day race with 3 stages would likely do it for me; add a day of scrutineering and pre-race/orientation ahead of that plus transit days on either end and it would be enough to squeeze into a typical work week. Take 6 for the race plus a 7th to rest before going back to work.
Later I'd like to see this stretch to many days...maybe always including a 3-day overlap at the end of the full event for noobs. That way they could play and share the post event festivities with the guys racing for many more days.
I'm looking to get my feet wet and I don't want to kill myself, my ride, or my budget to get a taste of a rally like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
2. How many hours of racing per day (assuming moderate to extremely challenging terrain)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild



Hard for me to gauge the difference between first and last place on the clock, but I'd like to see an average rider heading out for as much as 8 hours. When I can get a 'full' day of riding in it is typically 8 hours because that is about all I can afford with my other daily family duties. I wouldn't want to create a race situation where someone is going to struggle and be out riding for 16 hours because they are having a hard go at it, but I also don't see much excitement in a race that can be wrapped up with only 3 hours of fast riding by the elites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
3. How difficult should the navigation be? Different difficulty on each day?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild



I'd like to see traditional roadbook navigation that can't be bypassed by following a GPS track. Not having any experience with navigating by roadbook I can't comment on difficulty, but I would think that a route laid out on roads which simply has turns made onto other established roads would rank pretty easy...would that be bad for a 1st go at this, I can't personally say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
4. How difficult should the terrain be? Different on each day?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild



If you know where you are going to stage the initial race maybe you can have different terrain to ride, sand, rocks, singletrack, doubletrack, roads. Different terrain with different speeds mixed with navigation challenges would make for an interesting race. I don't see why you can't mix it up day by day or have each day contain a full mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
5. Would you like zero, one, or two optional short non-timed “practice” stages to get used to the roadbooks, unique navigation, and unique terrain in the area? Would you come one or two days early to do the practice stage(s)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild



I'd come one day early to get an introduction, in keeping with my earlier comment about a 3-day race. I won't have a lot of time off for a big event in the next few years but I don't want that to preclude me from participating. I could see a day zero being taken up by early AM scrutineering followed by race practice. I'd opt for scrutineering early to make sure bikes are adequately equipped and safe before practicing. I'm not overly concerned about one cheating a bike after scrutineering is completed for a race like this, is anyone else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
6. Would you like to camp in a bivouac, Dakar style, or pay for hotel rooms a ways away from the start/finish?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild



In honor of the Dakar Privateers, I'd like to see a proper bivouac. Personally I would do that over a hotel anyway whether we're talking Mexico or the USA. I don't necessarily want to see a rule about it but it makes sense to me to keep the core group together. Setting up camp and keeping everyone together seems like a good approach. You can cater the food and call people in to eat and for rider meetings; when folks are stretched all over the place at different sites it just seems like you're going to be missing folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
7. Are paved liaison sections a major pain, or a minor inconvenience? How far is too far if you have a morning and evening paved liaison?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild



Liaisons open up opportunities to race where you want to race; without them you restrict the availability of good racing terrain. Put them in when they are necessary, be it in the morning, evening, or during the middle of the day between timed sections. The other world rallys do this. If someone on a 300 two smoke complains about this tell the person to get a different bike or more durable tires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
8. Which would you prefer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
...a. Moving bivouac (i.e. Dakar and NORRA Mexican 1000, more liaisons, more taco stands).
...b. Fixed bivouac (stationary camp, no need for chase crew, no long drive back to the border after you're done).



Initially I would bow to the pressures of the initial races and the compromises that must be made to pull them off. A fixed bivouac would be easy logistically speaking, but maybe not possible if race terrain gets really stretched out or if it simply gets too boring to ride the same stuff each day. I like the idea of a moving bivy to allow folks to see more of the country, but it does add to the logistical complexity for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
9. Would you be willing to pay 3 times more if it was in Western USA instead of Northern Mexico?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild



Eventually when I become wealthy, absolutely. I'd pay the premium to see it in the States anyway. Though I've already said that I'd like to get my feet wet with this on a lower budget. Mexico is a viable idea and should be explored thoroughly. Permitting in Mexico is going to be easier too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild
10. What could be done to attract traditional Baja racers without turning it into another SCORE race?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild



I’ve not raced in the SCORE series nor have I attended one of their events. I don’t know what makes those events SCORE races so I can’t say how to prevent this one from becoming like the other. Perhaps you could turn to the organizer of the King Of The West annual event for some lessons about how he organized a fun event for riders without blowing it out of proportion? I think his handle is NOTMYBIKEMODELNAME and he seemed like he had a pretty good thing starting up-low key and fun. I think his approach was to make something go off that was fun to ride without costing much and he then limited the number of entries to keep things manageable. I’m not entirely sure what kind of race profile you are looking to build for this event and whether you are going after bikers, mostly, or anyone and everyone.


-good luck
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Old 09-17-2013, 04:54 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sellmeyer View Post
Call me informed or call me stupid, but I'm not concerned about the narco scene in Northern Mexico for an event such as this provided that the route organizers are personally informed and experienced with the territory.
We are well informed about these issues. One of the reasons we selected the particular region we are using is because it is considered one of the safest places in Mexico. Nobody would be crazy enough to go there . . . except some nutty rally racers! Also, we are working with a number of officials and others who live in the area, so "we" have lots of local knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sellmeyer View Post
Not having any experience with navigating by roadbook I can't comment on difficulty, but I would think that a route laid out on roads which simply has turns made onto other established roads would rank pretty easy...would that be bad for a 1st go at this, I can't personally say.
The hundred or more people who have ridden my roadbook routes know that roadbook navigation can still be quite challenging, even if it's all on established roads. MANY of the people who go into "the grid" near Pahrump get a bit lost, yet every single turn is a perfect 90 degrees and the roads are quite clear. The simplest things can mess up your mind if arranged with evil intent!

Half of the Diabolical Rally is in terrain where there are NO roads or trails. Navigating through those sections without GPS tracks or waypoints can be . . . challenging, . . . or better, . . . diabolical!
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:49 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
Half of the Diabolical Rally is in terrain where there are NO roads or trails. Navigating through those sections without GPS tracks or waypoints can be . . . challenging, . . . or better, . . . diabolical!
that could be quite fun then quite terrible-sign me up!

Having not seen your roadbooks before I'd like to know how you manage these off road sections. Do you provide compass bearings and leg distances such that riders would need a GPS or other device for a bearing?
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:29 PM   #67
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Sellmeyer, Make sure you get to the Pahrump Rally School - its worth every cent and believe me the route on the grid is diabolical without carefully following the RB.

With distances in the RB like 43.42 and 44.24 then 45.42 and 45.24 it really screws with the mind, and does not help if you are a bit ADD

Hogwild: I reckon you have opened a can of worms asking peeps what they want. if its anything like you usually do, you will have lots of people signing up. We are masochists who like the lemons wrapped in chocolate.

Think of the Dakar in Africa - That's the spirit that needs to be captured again. Fancy campers and big teams should be banned. Malle moto is the way to go for everyone, with maybe Joe Hauler's trailer for the organizers and guys who need to do maintenance all night. Everyone gets a box and a place to store tyres/rims on the truck and that's it.

Days should be long, with some long dirt liaisons thrown in for good measure if the stages are short and easy.

This is the Spirit of Dakar that was lost about 4 years ago.

In South Africa last year we had just 2 stages in the Amageza 2013, a total of about 700km with close to 60 entrants. (http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/inde...topic=97441.60).

Next month is the Amageza 2013, three days each day 650-700km of riding, 80% of it is special stage. The idea is to take back the spirit of Dakar. Thanks to the Rally navigator guys.

I cant wait to see what happens next year. Its going to be great year for rallies.
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:08 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sellmeyer View Post
Having not seen your roadbooks before I'd like to know how you manage these off road sections. Do you provide compass bearings and leg distances such that riders would need a GPS or other device for a bearing?
As Bluebull said, you might consider a few days at rally school to learn the navigation stuff. Check with Jimmy Lewis or Dave at RMS for their next rally schools. And Dave also has the rally equipment you'll need.

Yes, a GPS based compass, rally odometer, and a good nose for navigation take you where the roadbook points you.
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Old 09-18-2013, 06:57 AM   #69
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: diabolical
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:23 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebull2007 View Post
In South Africa last year we had just 2 stages in the Amageza 2013, a total of about 700km with close to 60 entrants. (http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/inde...topic=97441.60).

Next month is the Amageza 2013, three days each day 650-700km of riding, 80% of it is special stage. The idea is to take back the spirit of Dakar. Thanks to the Rally navigator guys.

I cant wait to see what happens next year. Its going to be great year for rallies.
I see some trips back to the future Neil?

Totally agree in recapturing something that Dakar is loosing year by year.... A long distance rally for privateers....
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:41 AM   #71
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[Think of the Dakar in Africa - That's the spirit that needs to be captured again. Fancy campers and big teams should be banned. Malle moto is the way to go for everyone, with maybe Joe Hauler's trailer for the organizers and guys who need to do maintenance all night. Everyone gets a box and a place to store tyres/rims on the truck and that's it. "

I 100% agree with you. Even KTM thought twice about bringing campers @ BV. When I was at the BV this year, even some riders brought their wife's to race. That's crazy!
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:02 PM   #72
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Any schedule news?

I know you are still working out the details but I have been staring at my work calendar and wondering about this. Basically March or earlier is a definite no-go for me but April is looking good.

So... my vote probably doesn't count for much (anything) but fingers crossed for early April

Either way I am really glad you are putting this event together, even if I do miss the first year.
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:03 PM   #73
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Mention to HogWild which way the wind is blowing where you're at, wait 20 minutes, and he'll post a picture of the intersection your at and a Google Earth route of how to get there.
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:08 PM   #74
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I know you are still working out the details but I have been staring at my work calendar and wondering about this. Basically March or earlier is a definite no-go for me but April is looking good.

So... my vote probably doesn't count for much (anything) but fingers crossed for early April

Either way I am really glad you are putting this event together, even if I do miss the first year.

It looks like you're in luck --> April 2-5th

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=925911

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Old 10-10-2013, 03:13 PM   #75
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Yes!!!

Had not seen the new thread. Thanks for the link.
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