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Old 06-02-2013, 07:25 AM   #16
WayneC1
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Thanks JR, have added the VR to a page I have online re VR's http://www.f650gs.crossroadz.com.au/VRegulator.html

The page is for the 650GS but these components are common, may contact Roadster for a full spec sheet to add to the page
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Old 06-02-2013, 07:44 AM   #17
JRWooden OP
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Sounds good, if you get spec. sheet let me know!

Jim
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Old 06-02-2013, 09:01 PM   #18
WayneC1
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Jim, emailed RoadsterCycle, Jack had noticed a couple of F800 orders and he has provided a mechanical dimensions and mounting template pdf. Imperial dimensions only at the moment, I will update it with metric later in the week

I have added it to my VR page for you to download it http://www.f650gs.crossroadz.com.au/VRegulator.html

Have also explained to Jack the F800 problems etc and have requested further electronic spec's and asked if he has any ideas on sourcing the connectors, will let you know if I have any success.
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Old 06-10-2013, 08:16 PM   #19
JRWooden OP
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Today I finally got time to do a few ABS system tests with battery at a reduced state-of-charge.

With the bike pointed at a nice patch of rain-soaked turf, I turned the key on and let the headlight run until the battery indicated a bit over 12V.

I fired up the bike rode at about 10mph just briefly until the ABS light went out and the system was calibrated ... I then, in a moment of bravado, slammed on both front and rear brakes to full lock ...

The ABS system functioned without flaw, which is what I expected.
I'm now feeling pretty good about my bucket-list 2013 tour that starts the end of this week.

Jim

PS: You are reading the babblings of a guy that is at least one can short of a six-pack.

If you decide to try to duplicate any of the stupid crap I've done please test your modifications to your personal satisfaction and insure they meet your standards.

If I can help in any way, I'll try to do so! Post or PM me.

This forum has been a huge blessing to me, and to what little remains of my sanity. I'm happy to help other inmates try to retain what remains of their own....

It's a hosed up world, and were it not for motorcycles ...
ok I'll shut up...
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Old 06-10-2013, 09:01 PM   #20
WayneC1
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Your efforts are appreciated JR, have linked the thread over to f650 so the info gets out there for all, we are all 1 can short arent we ?

Have not heard back from Jack at RoadsterCycle re any detailed spec on the VR yet, will chase him up in a few weeks, it is really the cut off voltages which are needed to know if it is fine for all the Lithiums not just the AntiGravity at 14.2v,
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Old 06-11-2013, 05:19 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
Your efforts are appreciated JR, have linked the thread over to f650 so the info gets out there for all, we are all 1 can short arent we ?

Have not heard back from Jack at RoadsterCycle re any detailed spec on the VR yet, will chase him up in a few weeks, it is really the cut off voltages which are needed to know if it is fine for all the Lithiums not just the AntiGravity at 14.2v,
Jack has a "day job" that helps pay the bills, but i have found him to be very responsive. He accepts phone calls in the evening (it says on his website, but I think he's on west coast).

I guess I never posted it, but the voltage on my system is now ~14.1V and very stable with RPM and load ... seeming to only vary about +/- .05V but that is a sample size of "one" ....
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:01 AM   #22
WayneC1
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14.1 is a little lower that I would prefer to hear of, assuming your battery is in good condition of course, may email Jack and ask more, he may be able to ask for it to be increased for Lithium
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:39 AM   #23
JRWooden OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
14.1 is a little lower that I would prefer to hear of, assuming your battery is in good condition of course, may email Jack and ask more, he may be able to ask for it to be increased for Lithium
Battery is Deka, about 1 yr old and in good shape.

Compared to what I was getting from my early vintage OEM R/R I'm pretty happy ....

and ... yeah, I get the impression that CE makes this unit for Jack specifically and maybe a few other distributors, so perhaps it could be modified....
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:41 AM   #24
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I appreciate your efforts also JR, as well as lots of others. I ordered one of the vr's from Jack also. My '09 is still charging with a little over 48,000 miles on the stock setup, so it will be interesting to see how much farther it will make it.
Thanks again to all who make this little world go around

Christi
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Old 09-10-2013, 08:40 PM   #25
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failure mode

Do I remember correctly that in addition to speculation about noise the other objection to a series type RR was it's failure mode? That a shunt type when it fails fails 'closed' while the series type might fail 'open' and pass unregulated current into the bike's electrical system?

Do I mis-remember, mis-understand, or is this still a concern?
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:01 PM   #26
WayneC1
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There are pluses and minuses to each type

A Shunt regulator can fail with
1/ The switching element short circuit and short out the Stator so no output (rare but can damage a stator)
2/ The switching element open circuit and so full unregulated voltage goes to the battery (normal failure mode)

A series pass regulator can fail with
1/ The switching element short circuit and deliver full unregulated voltage to the battery (rare)
2/ The switching element open circuit and so no voltage goes to the battery (normal failure mode)

There can be other failure modes but they are the basics and most common/likely
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:39 PM   #27
Singletrack_mind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
A series pass regulator can fail with
1/ The switching element short circuit and deliver full unregulated voltage to the battery (rare)
2/ The switching element open circuit and so no voltage goes to the battery (normal failure mode)


OK, that's reassuring. The "normal failure mode" for the series type RR sounds quite benign.
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Old 09-11-2013, 11:24 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneC1 View Post
There are pluses and minuses to each type

A Shunt regulator can fail with
1/ The switching element short circuit and short out the Stator so no output (rare but can damage a stator)
2/ The switching element open circuit and so full unregulated voltage goes to the battery (normal failure mode)

A series pass regulator can fail with
1/ The switching element short circuit and deliver full unregulated voltage to the battery (rare)
2/ The switching element open circuit and so no voltage goes to the battery (normal failure mode)

There can be other failure modes but they are the basics and most common/likely
Wayne:
Can we talk about this for a minute ....

I think understand the concept of the "full unregulated voltage" ...
But don't have a schematic handy for the series style regulator...

With either design would it be the case that the "bad" failure mode would feed pulsing DC power (rectified output from the stator) into the battery and electrical system with a voltage somewhat proportionaly to RPM?

Which might be as high as say ... 75V ??? ... It's hard for me to visualize the effect the battery would have in acting as a large capacitor ... or if it even would act as a large capacitor to damp the peak voltages?

Since the voltage issue is a potential failure mechanism for either design (more common on one than the other ... but still) Would you think that our German engineering friends have an electrical system design includes some protection for sensitive circuitry ... a pair of zener diodes or perhaps something more clever ... or are we left to cope?
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Old 09-11-2013, 06:50 PM   #29
WayneC1
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The open circuit voltage from the Stator can be 75v but when the battery is connected, the output from the stator is "loaded" down to around 16 to 18v.

The stator is 3 phase, ie 3 separate windings producing voltage at different times. The battery acts as a capacitor smoothing what ever pulses or "ripple" remains after regulation

With these modern regulators there is no rectifier, simply 3 switching elements, one per phase of the stator

In the case of a series pass regulator the switching elements turn off when voltage rises above the preset voltage (14.4v)

In the case of the shunt regulator the switching elements turn on and shorts the individual phase to earth until the voltage comes down below the preset

The electronics such as the ECU all have rugged voltage regulation internally to protect from over voltage and any noise or residual ripples in the electrical system, this is the only clever thing in there. The processors run at 5v internally (Motorola 68000 on the BMS)

One of our F650 single crew blew an FH012 VR recently and has a volt meter, he saw 18v max but there may have been short duration peaks above that. I have seen 16.5v when the stock VR has overheated and shut down on mine

The OEM's have been reluctant to go to series pass VR's as the full current passes through the switch element and the most common failure is to go open circuit hence no charging and you are left stranded whereas with a shunt VR in a failure you still have an output charging the battery even though the voltage is high and hence you have a limp home mode (hoping the electronics is not damaged)
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Old 09-11-2013, 07:16 PM   #30
_cy_
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been watching your thread on series R/R with interest. found this little jewel from your link.

just ordered for $24 .. an LED over/under charge indicator.

an absolute necessity when using LiFePO4 batteries. especially when used with permanent magnet charging systems. where there's a potential for slugging your tiny AH LiFePO4 battery with 30+ amps if regulator should ever fail the wrong way.

a similar thing happens when using too small LiFePO4. typical lithium battery mfg listings recommends way too small AH capacity. besides starting bike, a battery acts like a capacitor smoothing out loads. to do this battery needs to be within actual AH parameters specified by mfg.

due to mumbo jumbo used by LiFePO4 mfg a 5AH actual LiFePO4 battery becomes an 18AH lead acid equivalent. well your charging system slugs real amps at your battery, the same way all your electrics on your bike uses real amps.

low internal resistance is why a tiny AH LiFePO4 battery are able deliver huge amps disproportional to their actual AH capacity. during bulk phase of charging li-ion batteries will attempt to swallow all the amps you throw at it. result could result in battery heating up hot enough to melt case.

modern motorcycles with all their high tech features uses a tiny draw even when parked. BMW motorcycle have the worst parasitic drain .. say a 14AH actual AGM gets replaced with a 5AH actual LiFePO4. a few months sitting your 5AH LiFePO4 could get drained.

after starting if say you've got a 720watt output like BMW R1200 .. less over head wattage.. your tiny 5AH LiFePO4 will get slammed with 37amps...

let me know if I'm getting too off topic ... but parts of above really does relate to your R/R and permanent magnet charging systems.


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