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Old 05-29-2013, 08:25 PM   #16
wb22rules OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
Funny how too many knew this is how it would be, that lenient judging or fist fights was going to happen.

You cannot expect "paid PRO riders, who's very way of earning money, can be left to the "guess" of a volunteer rule keeper (observers).

ANY professional sport has paid referees (observers) that know the rules, can make the calls, and few are challenged... because the players know/are taught to know that the observer/umpire is trained, paid professional. They are the final say, except if a protest is called. then we get "replay" to help to see who is right or wrong based on the rules. Watching the videos posted in other thread, none of the riders I watched dared to have replay brought into the decisions, far as I could tell NOBODY rode "no stop" honestly and replay proof is there for you.

Trials could go NO STOP, I guess when the FIM puts the observers into the professional realms...
That was my sons point in one of our discussions on the ride home, if the officiating is suspect that is the best way to insure the top riders won't want to come back. He did not understand why the FIM did not bring chief observers over with them to the USA event, and he was not a fan of the concept that volunteers were recruited for the task.

My counter point to him was that the US trials community is full of peeps like lineaway and nwcycle and Mr Bill and MacAttack who ran their sections with the highest regard for the spirit of the rules. But what gave my son ammunition was one of late sections on Sunday where minders and riders took full advantage of the situation. I did not have a good answer as to why what we saw occur there happened, it was not good. I totally understand the position that MacAttack feels he was put in with the new rules, as well as lineaway and nwcycle. And I agree that in order top make future events drama free and to encourage the sports growth the FIM or the sanctioning bodies need to make the rules easy/clear to enforce so that everyone who competes can be comfortable with the result without a lot of drama and whining over special treatment or selective rules enforcement.
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:02 AM   #17
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To 2WHLRCR, the rules are the correct rules. I can drive into the first corner and put my kickstand down and walk away with your rules. You do not need any skills at all! Wow , impressive!
I scored at the world rounds and it was the best run event I had ever seen. All these guys crying about subjective scoring are afraid of their own abilities. If YOU DO NOT WANT A 5, just clean it. Very simple.
I had a great section. It was hard for ALL riders. The same hard ledge was in the 2008 world round. Most riders cleaned it in `08 because they could get set up. This year you actually had to `ride ` the section!
Not picking on you, obviously this `change` is new to you!
Nope, I would five you. And with the new 1970 rules, If you came to a stop...I would five you. Did that happen at the World Round? No.

As long as the US Nationals doesn't adopt No Stop or Stop For A Little Bit Is Okay rules I don't really care what rules the FIM adopts.

Now I do agree the "all day dab" should be abolished. If you are going to stop, you better not have a foot down, or it's a five. But for those who have the ability to balance and hop and go backwards, let them use their skills.

My first trial was in 1973. Continue forward motion was the rule 40 years ago. Of course it had to be that way, because the clutches drug so bad and the brakes couldn't stop you anyway.

2whlrcr screwed with this post 05-30-2013 at 05:15 AM
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:09 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
To 2WHLRCR, the rules are the correct rules. I can drive into the first corner and put my kickstand down and walk away with your rules. You do not need any skills at all! Wow , impressive!
I scored at the world rounds and it was the best run event I had ever seen. All these guys crying about subjective scoring are afraid of their own abilities. If YOU DO NOT WANT A 5, just clean it. Very simple.
I had a great section. It was hard for ALL riders. The same hard ledge was in the 2008 world round. Most riders cleaned it in `08 because they could get set up. This year you actually had to `ride ` the section!
Not picking on you, obviously this `change` is new to you!
Change has come Lineaway, that I hate to say I hope you never "assume" we're dumb enough to not kind of see your point, about stopping with a foot down (kickstand) might not be "skill worthy of TV, in some cases." But, I hope you see MY and other's point is, there was such a "grey" area in that very rule, which had to be "guessed" at by a volunteer force (judges) that the ONLY way to keep it from being "bou" gets a 5, I get a 1 for the exact same situations, was to "let it happen." It is as simple as that, changes nothing except the occasional he fived Bou, he didn't five Raga bullshit.

The worst part about all of this, 80% of the riders I meet (online or offline) say "just have fun." & "Don't give a crap about scoring." That is why I keep attacking this "no stop" bs by a small percentage of riders, that cannot see that making it "fair" for anyone that IS IN IT TO COMPETE, like me, so that I can at least feel it is fair.

It is just like saying you get 3 hours to ride your 3 loops, after that you get 1/2 point per minute. You use a standard (clock on wall at signup/card turn in, not the one I brought from Kansas) to make the call, it affects everyone the same, and is fair that way. Plus I hate but understand when I've turned my card in on time, but due to situations they had to extend the time limits. Sure I hate that, and feel like I kind of got screwed if I hurried more than a couple sections to get done, but at the same time, it has to be done I guess.

Same kind of crap has been in trails for 40 some years, even back when on the classic not stop trials, you could stop with feet up, nobody tried to give you a five while you tried (sometimes in vain) trying to keep from running over the flag (out of bounds marker, we used flags back in the 70's) when the flag was in a tricky area after an obstacle...

But there was always the "luck or skill of blurring and taking advantage" of the rule, to pop the clutch precisely as you let your foot hit the ground. those were then left to see if you "fooled" the judge into thinking you were NOT stopped with your foot down.

I know back in the day, if you got stuck in a rock gully section, slid back ANY at all, you were usually fived. Yeah, I said USUALLY Because I watched in horror (competitively speaking) as my long legged competitors could recover and keep going, where I had no place to dab and keep going. Yeah this forced me to not allow myself if possible, to come up short on things, then need to get a foot down, aka: mid cliff. Was my reward for making it, rewarded? IMHO long term yeah, but at that trials, no... because the other guys could dab and keep going.

So I kind of know exactly what "skills that are lacking" are you commenting on, when you say "put the kickstand down? And yeah, I think you feel like I might have felt when I would watch my competitors, put both feet down on a log and push the bike over it (which I couldn't do) and get a 2 or sometimes a 3, when I busted my ass off to go over the same thing, or 5 it failing to do so.

I've just been sick and tired for some 40 years of trials, where you can have 5 people watch the same rider in a section, you can get varying opinions (sometimes 5 different) of did he five or not (stopped rolled back "too far?" how far?)!!! that is all. It is the judgement/sympathy calls that I hate most, and honestly not so much on my score as to EVERYONE's even the judges having to deal with it.

Let the rules stand as they have been, IMHO.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:22 AM   #19
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Well

I just wanna ride..................
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Old 05-30-2013, 10:34 AM   #20
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Shit Sting we haven`t told you about the weird fim rules yet! You know if you are really good, you can drag your foot from start to finish and just get a one. Now that is the `new` all day dab. You can drop your handle bar on the ground or put your hand on the ground and still just get a one and slide them 6ft!! Just remember that forward motion!!
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Old 05-30-2013, 10:41 AM   #21
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Now I swear I read a post 4 or 5 up that said that you judged a helluva lot better than that... :p

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Old 05-30-2013, 10:43 AM   #22
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I just wanna ride..................
By golly we'll still ride! Rule is even a bad day of dumb rules for trials, is better than the best day at work.. just sayin...

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Old 05-30-2013, 11:39 AM   #23
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By golly we'll still ride! Rule is even a bad day of dumb rules for trials, is better than the best day at work.. just sayin...

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Old 05-30-2013, 04:05 PM   #24
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I just wanna ride too. But if our local clubs go to No Stop, I will probably stop competing. And I'm lousy at stopping and hopping. I just think our sport has progressed to include balancing as part of your bag of tricks. But I'm old and stubborn too. Good thing I've got 85 acres of primo trials land to ride on out my back door and I can stop all I want, without anyone seeing me.
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Old 05-30-2013, 04:14 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by 2whlrcr View Post

Now I do agree the "all day dab" should be abolished. If you are going to stop, you better not have a foot down, or it's a five. But for those who have the ability to balance and hop and go backwards, let them use their skills.
This +1!
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:04 AM   #26
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The idea of the trials manufacturers to revert to NS rules (which they forced FIM to adopt), is something I dont think works at WTC level, and certainly isnt likely to help with bike sales, which I would guess was the intended purpose.

However bearing in mind the costs of competing in locations such as the US, it seems disappointing the severity of the sections at this event seems to suggest concentration rather than rider ability was the deciding factor here.
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Old 05-31-2013, 02:35 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
...... ANY professional sport has paid referees (observers) that know the rules, can make the calls, and few are challenged... because the players know/are taught to know that the observer/umpire is trained, paid professional. They are the final say, except if a protest is called. then we get "replay" to help to see who is right or wrong based on the rules. Watching the videos posted in other thread, none of the riders I watched dared to have replay brought into the decisions, far as I could tell NOBODY rode "no stop" honestly and replay proof is there for you.

Trials could go NO STOP, I guess when the FIM puts the observers into the professional realms...
You mean like "observers" (home plate umpires) in major league baseball?
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:08 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by 2whlrcr View Post
I just wanna ride too. But if our local clubs go to No Stop, I will probably stop competing. And I'm lousy at stopping and hopping. I just think our sport has progressed to include balancing as part of your bag of tricks. But I'm old and stubborn too. Good thing I've got 85 acres of primo trials land to ride on out my back door and I can stop all I want, without anyone seeing me.


No stop is ridiculous.
It is mpossible to score. I know Lineaway, your World section was good and you guys scored it fairly. I saw lots that weren't. This was a world event for crissakes. You don't have a 5 minute video for judges in any other world class sporting event and expect them to know what the hell is going on.

To monkey with the rules in an attempt to minimize the skill set of athletes is just stoopit.
Time limits in sections combined with sections that don't have artificial boxes to hop around in are IMO the way to go. Use the terrain and set the sections smart.

Go watch a trials demo with Aarons or Smage and see how interesting that would be no-stop! Really, no-one wants to see this except a few old timers that are nostalgic for the "way it was". I really don't care how it was and I don't have a wooden driver in my golf bag either.

This reminds me of when Indy Cars split into Indy and CART. That worked out great for that sport. If the FIM keeps dicking with the rules, this sport will suffer even more.
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:26 PM   #29
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Great points. I also have retired my wooden driver, and remember how the Indy/Cart spilt "helped" the sport
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:58 PM   #30
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Great points. I also have retired my wooden driver, and remember how the Indy/Cart spilt "helped" the sport
Yeah I still laugh when I think about that quote on Speed channel, when Kyle Petty said something (shit now memory is fading) "what is a 4 letter word for a slow moving vehicle pulled by Donkey?" CART. LOL.
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