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Old 06-10-2013, 04:20 AM   #16
TuefelHunden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
+1 This.

BTW hot rodders run e85 in modern cars all the time. It turns out the octane level of e85 is off the chart. However it takes more volume of fuel to reach correct mixtures, so the main limiting factor is the max flow capacity of the various fuel system components.

There are N54 BMW cars (twin turbo) running around pushing 600 WHP running straight e85, no mods to the fuel system except for a low pressure pump. Stock internals and head. These are direct injection engines (3k psi fuel systems). These cars have low and high pressure fuel pumps. No failures due to ethanol. No one even thinks about this anymore. This is more than double stock HP/TQ levels out of some teeny tiny turbos.

Cars have upgraded turbo internals, intercooler, flash tune, and so forth but the e85 is not the problem. It is the solution for running big boost on high compression engines.
It is a far cry from highly modified cars to street cars and bikes. Yes, octane can be off the chart, but octane hase to do with the rate at which a fuel burns, NOT the amount of power you can get out of it. Bottom line, some isomer of pentane (gasoline) has way more energy than alcohol.
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Old 06-10-2013, 05:04 AM   #17
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Phillips 66

In Kansas an interesting story about E15, Phillips 66 and the corn alcohol lobby. In the article I'm providing a link to it is stated that the oil companies make more money by not selling E15 and are in court and legislatures to stop the EPA and the corn shuckers from forcing E15 into our tanks.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...ngsNews&rpc=43
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Old 06-10-2013, 05:49 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by slipknot View Post
In Kansas an interesting story about E15, Phillips 66 and the corn alcohol lobby. In the article I'm providing a link to it is stated that the oil companies make more money by not selling E15 and are in court and legislatures to stop the EPA and the corn shuckers from forcing E15 into our tanks.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...ngsNews&rpc=43
Well it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure that out.
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Old 06-10-2013, 06:01 AM   #19
mike cummins
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palm oil

Vast areas of pristine rainforest is slashed and burned each year in order to make way for oil palm plantations. Many orangutans and other wildlife are killed in the process, so that this one vegetable oil can be used in many of our everyday foods and products. This large-scale deforestation is pushing orangutans to extinction, along with many other native species of Borneo and Sumatra.

The one thing i cant stand is ignorance :)
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Old 06-10-2013, 07:55 AM   #20
Anorak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuefelHunden View Post
It is a far cry from highly modified cars to street cars and bikes. Yes, octane can be off the chart, but octane hase to do with the rate at which a fuel burns, NOT the amount of power you can get out of it. Bottom line, some isomer of pentane (gasoline) has way more energy than alcohol.
Well, you can tune an engine for greater power from oxygenated fuel like ethanol because they carry oxygen. So you can introduce more oxygen into then engine than would normally be brought in from the atmosphere without using some sort of pump like a supercharger to force more air into the engine. More fuel is added to mix with the air. This doesn't really have bearing on oem tuning but I wanted to address your mention of octane.
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Old 06-10-2013, 09:42 AM   #21
fred flintstone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
Well, you can tune an engine for greater power from oxygenated fuel like ethanol because they carry oxygen. So you can introduce more oxygen into then engine than would normally be brought in from the atmosphere without using some sort of pump like a supercharger to force more air into the engine. More fuel is added to mix with the air. This doesn't really have bearing on oem tuning but I wanted to address your mention of octane.
Exactly. You crank up the turbos and add fuel. Beyond a certain point you can add more fuel but what you really need is more octane. e85 and blends add the octane so you can run more boost without blowing up, for a given CR and so forth. But you need more ethanol to make a given amount of energy hence big limit ends up being fuel flow capacity of pumps injectors etc.

Point is/was even running massive amounts of ethanol through otherwise stock/street fuel systems there are no problems WRT it being ethanol.

Older engines and older fuel lines, poor quality rubber seals etc. maybe. I remember all the horror stories being told/blamed on lead being taken out of gas. This ethanol thing reminds me of that.
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Old 06-10-2013, 10:05 AM   #22
TuefelHunden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
Well, you can tune an engine for greater power from oxygenated fuel like ethanol because they carry oxygen. So you can introduce more oxygen into then engine than would normally be brought in from the atmosphere without using some sort of pump like a supercharger to force more air into the engine. More fuel is added to mix with the air. This doesn't really have bearing on oem tuning but I wanted to address your mention of octane.
Not sure what your connection is to octane, but octane is a measurement directly relate to detonation and is measured on a calibrated one cylinder engine designed expressly for that. Octane really isn't a measure of power. Bottom line, is that a molecule of 2-2-4 trimethyl-pentane which was gasoline for a long time and probably still is has more energy in BTU's or whatever your measuring tool than an equal amout of ethanol. Getting power out of an engine has a lot to do with controlling the burn. You can add air/oxygen to gas or alcohol and and alcohol does have some advantages, but any way you cut it, both alcohol and gas have a ratio of components to provide the maximum amount of energy and gas just has more energy.
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Old 06-10-2013, 10:09 AM   #23
lkchris
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Originally Posted by TuefelHunden View Post
Octane really isn't a measure of power.
No, but it gives the leeway to tune for more power, i.e. increase compression, advance ignition timing.

And, BTW, my R1200RT has a plastic fuel tank.
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Old 06-10-2013, 10:21 AM   #24
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I'm still reeling from the addition of methyl tertiary butyl ether. Where will it end!
MTBE was a swell oxygenate...its made from natural gas....cheap and abundant. Works well and did the job. Still used in many countries. Problem is that some complained that it was finding its way into groundwater due to leaking tanks at gas stations. Also, some claimed it is a carcinogen and causes birth defects. So, in all its wisdom, the EPA mandated ethanol to take it place. No, don't bother to repair the leaking fuel tanks...just ignore the leaks and switch what is put in them and watch the price of corn go through the roof.

BTW, MTBE is not a carcinogen and does not cause birth defects. It does smell a bit like turpentine however so folks think it is evil stuff.
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Old 06-10-2013, 10:26 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuefelHunden View Post
Not sure what your connection is to octane, but octane is a measurement directly relate to detonation and is measured on a calibrated one cylinder engine designed expressly for that. Octane really isn't a measure of power. Bottom line, is that a molecule of 2-2-4 trimethyl-pentane which was gasoline for a long time and probably still is has more energy in BTU's or whatever your measuring tool than an equal amout of ethanol. Getting power out of an engine has a lot to do with controlling the burn. You can add air/oxygen to gas or alcohol and and alcohol does have some advantages, but any way you cut it, both alcohol and gas have a ratio of components to provide the maximum amount of energy and gas just has more energy.
Boy, I love it when us motorcycle guys wax scientific.
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Old 06-10-2013, 11:06 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuefelHunden View Post
Not sure what your connection is to octane, but octane is a measurement directly relate to detonation and is measured on a calibrated one cylinder engine designed expressly for that. Octane really isn't a measure of power. Bottom line, is that a molecule of 2-2-4 trimethyl-pentane which was gasoline for a long time and probably still is has more energy in BTU's or whatever your measuring tool than an equal amout of ethanol. Getting power out of an engine has a lot to do with controlling the burn. You can add air/oxygen to gas or alcohol and and alcohol does have some advantages, but any way you cut it, both alcohol and gas have a ratio of components to provide the maximum amount of energy and gas just has more energy.
Yes, gasoline has more energy per gallon and has a greater difference between fuel and air, an oxygenated fuel can make more power because you are adding more oxygen when you add more fuel. With gasoline, you are limited in the amount of fuel you can add by the amount of air coming in through the intake. An extreme example is nitromethane. It has low energy per gallon but at about a 4:1 air fuel ratio can make 8,000 horsepower in a 500 cubic inch dragster engine.
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Old 06-10-2013, 02:11 PM   #27
mwood7800
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Take a gallon of ethanol gas in a glass container and add a table spoon of water. Wait 24 hr. I'm tired of buying gas at 350 a gallon that has a 60 day shelf life.
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Old 06-10-2013, 09:54 PM   #28
marchyman
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I'm tired of buying gas at 350 a gallon that has a 60 day shelf life.
Then stop buying the cheap gas.

Here all gas contains ethanol and is usually in the $4 range. Where does your 60 day number come from? I fill some of the containers used for yard equipment about every other year (600 days). No issues. The fuel in the containers attached to the back of my GS was poured into the (usually nearly empty tank) about every 4-5 months so I could fill with fresh fuel. Again no problems.

Crap gas doesn't have good shelf life. I'm not sure that ethanol has anything to do with it.
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Old 06-11-2013, 01:01 PM   #29
TuefelHunden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
Yes, gasoline has more energy per gallon and has a greater difference between fuel and air, an oxygenated fuel can make more power because you are adding more oxygen when you add more fuel. With gasoline, you are limited in the amount of fuel you can add by the amount of air coming in through the intake. An extreme example is nitromethane. It has low energy per gallon but at about a 4:1 air fuel ratio can make 8,000 horsepower in a 500 cubic inch dragster engine.
Yes we can talk nitromethane, and if I put on my super a-hole hat, I could make some comment like why not pull that chunk of scrap iron reciprocating engine, put in LOX and hydrazine tanks and just unleash enough power to put you in orbit. The OP was, I think, talking about ethanol at the pump. Whether E10 or E15 there is no chemistry, physics or engineering to support its use for reducing oil dependency or engine efficiency of ANY kind. The reason for this discussion comes from the absolute fact that the people think our government is like the Borg, resistance is futile, drink the cool-aid.
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Old 06-11-2013, 01:48 PM   #30
fred flintstone
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Why can the auto manufacturers make their cars safe for use with E-85 (my son drives a Dodge truck that says Flex Fuel and E-85 on it) but motorcycles (and other small engines) can't handle E-10 or E-15?

What's the deal?
No the OP was asking what is quoted above. The answer is pretty simple, e10 at least is safe for nearly all engines, and a lot of faulty stuff gets blamed on it. e85 takes special higher flow fuel systems due to the less energy per unit volume of fuel. There are advantages as far as octane in some applications. No need to invoke politics, Borg, or rocket fuel.

A lot of stuff is related to older engines not being able to compensate for the roughly 4% lean condition you get when running 10% E vs 100% gasoline. Or at least this is my understanding.

Personally I think taking perfectly good food (grain) and burning it up inside internal combustion engines is stupid. Drives up the cost of food and land used to grow it. OP did not ask about that though.
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