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Old 06-19-2013, 05:36 AM   #91
cjack
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
You just made another error. Besides, you do have a choice. Buy the fuel or don't, but there are no subsidies involved in ethanol.
Wouldn't this be a subsidy?

"The Renewable Fuel Standard mandates that at least 37 percent of the 2011-12 corn crop be converted to ethanol and blended with the gasoline that powers our cars…[As a result] the current price of corn on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange is about $6.50 per bushel—almost triple the pre-mandate level."
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:00 AM   #92
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Wouldn't this be a subsidy?

"The Renewable Fuel Standard mandates that at least 37 percent of the 2011-12 corn crop be converted to ethanol and blended with the gasoline that powers our cars…[As a result] the current price of corn on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange is about $6.50 per bushel—almost triple the pre-mandate level."
You could call that an indirect subsidy if you like. You could also call the majority of the military budget and the middle east wars an oil subsidy.

Keep in mind that ethanol has to be blended and distributed through the channels owned by Exon/Mobil, etc. Big oil has never been in favor of ethanol because it's direct competition for them.

The pre ethanol price of corn was often below the cost of production, requiring direct subsidy support. You could make a case that the cattle feeder was then being subsidized by the taxpayer. It costs money to produce these crops and one way or the other there is a price to be paid if society wants to maintain an abundant supply.

Btw, where did that 37% figure come from? To my knowledge there is nothing stating that a certain percentage of the crop must go to ethanol. Even if the percentage were 40%, that doesn't tell the whole story. It ignores the 15% that comes back as high protein distillers grain. That puts 75% of the crop in the traditional market.

Look, the bottom line is that adverse weather is causing these high prices in commodities. Last years crop was short due to drought. The market gurus were forecasting $4 corn by fall this year, that would be a price below the cost of production for many farmers. It isn't happening due to more adverse weather. This time it's excessive rain that has prevented millions of acres from being planted.
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:50 AM   #93
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Look, the bottom line is that adverse weather is causing these high prices in commodities. Last years crop was short due to drought. The market gurus were forecasting $4 corn by fall this year, that would be a price below the cost of production for many farmers. It isn't happening due to more adverse weather. This time it's excessive rain that has prevented millions of acres from being planted.
Point taken about farming being one of the most risky businesses on the planet.
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:55 AM   #94
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I am not a fan of up to 10% Ethanol gasoline but have been using it in all my gasoline power motors and it has never caused a problem.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:35 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
I respect his opinion, but on this he's wrong.

I'll have to chat with my buddy about your thoughts who's Ducati fuel tank has been replaced twice, and Ducati, who was faced with a class action suit,as a result of ethanol additive damage, and lost.

Everyone else is wrong, you are right. I get it now. You're a corn farmer. Why else would you defend such a silly mandate of corn ethanol additive. Completely a waste of time. I'm moving on here, your welcome to your stand here, but I don't think anyone is listening to your view. Knock yourself out Mr. Ethanol.
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:04 AM   #96
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I'll have to chat with my buddy about your thoughts who's Ducati fuel tank has been replaced twice, and Ducati, who was faced with a class action suit,as a result of ethanol additive damage, and lost.

Everyone else is wrong, you are right. I get it now. You're a corn farmer. Why else would you defend such a silly mandate of corn ethanol additive. Completely a waste of time. I'm moving on here, your welcome to your stand here, but I don't think anyone is listening to your view. Knock yourself out Mr. Ethanol.
I've got a Ducati too, an 08 Monster r4rs Tricolour. It's tank has gotten slightly longer but looks and functions fine. Ducati is at fault for the problem and they are the ones you should direct your ire towards.
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:32 AM   #97
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Though are reliance on cheap oil has made us lazy (in terms of finding viable energy alternatives) and ecologically irresponsible, are farming practices and their subsequent pollution and emphasis on a corn based diet is just as deleterious. Read "The Omnivore's Dilemma", to get an idea of that.

Has anyone besides stevie88 (a corn farmer) said one word in defense of ethanol in gasoline?
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:00 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by KilLeR Kawasaki View Post
Though are reliance on cheap oil has made us lazy (in terms of finding viable energy alternatives) and ecologically irresponsible, are farming practices and their subsequent pollution and emphasis on a corn based diet is just as deleterious. Read "The Omnivore's Dilemma", to get an idea of that.

Has anyone besides stevie88 (a corn farmer) said one word in defense of ethanol in gasoline?
So you want to reduce the fuel supply by 10% and pay at least $1 per gallon more for fuel?
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:39 PM   #99
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Almost everything you said is wrong. Btw, I already have laid out its benefits.
It is a net loss where greenhouse gasses are concerned.
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:41 PM   #100
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It is a net loss where greenhouse gasses are concerned.
No it's not.
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:19 PM   #101
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No it's not.
The nitrogen rich fertilizer needed to grow the crops combined with the transporting and processing of the products involved and the reduces fuel economy (though it is not much) is enough to be more a detriment to the environment that a benefit. It IS a net loss.

It should be done away with.

It is ranks at the top of frauds that have been pulled on the American public.
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:41 PM   #102
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So you want to reduce the fuel supply by 10% and pay at least $1 per gallon more for fuel?
Are you that dude at the head of the Ethanol Lobby who wrote the letter to the editor of Snowest informing them that all of the Ethanol related fuel issues in snowmobiles is BS and everyone who has experienced it is a fool?

Cause you sound like you are.........

(or do you just have your entire life savings invested in Ethanol Companies?)
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Old 06-19-2013, 05:05 PM   #103
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I think he's on ADM's payroll or maybe just a troll.
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Old 06-19-2013, 05:41 PM   #104
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...Ducati is at fault for the problem and they are the ones you should direct your ire towards.
Definitely agree with you on this. Ethanol in motor fuel has been common in the US for decades (depending on what part of the country you live in). For Ducati to put a motor vehicle into the U.S. market that can't handle U.S. motor fuel is totally their fault. The proof of this being that Ducatis (and a few other exotic makes) are being singled out as being special. Other manufacturers are selling motorcycles where the fuel tanks don't fail from E10, so why can't Ducati, oh yes they are so "special".

Personally I don't like ethanol in motor fuel but that's all I've been buying for 20+ years as that is all that is commonly sold around here and I've never sought out any non-ethanol fuel. Cars, motorcycles, chain saws, weedwhackers, generator, brushmowers, hedge clipper, etc. etc.; not a problem.
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:11 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Uller View Post
Are you that dude at the head of the Ethanol Lobby who wrote the letter to the editor of Snowest informing them that all of the Ethanol related fuel issues in snowmobiles is BS and everyone who has experienced it is a fool?

Cause you sound like you are.........

(or do you just have your entire life savings invested in Ethanol Companies?)
For 2012, approximately 14000mmg (that's 14 giga gal or 14 billion gal) of ethanol was produced from corn starch. That is approximately 10% of the total US gasoline used for motor fuel. The fact is that the US refiners are dependent on Etoh for octane boost and also for making up for the production capacity that they lack. We had a couple of unscheduled refiner outages in this area last month, E10 gas (the cheapest available blend) spiked from $3.50/gal to $4:25/gal before easing. What if the blend was E15, surely, the price volatility would have been less since the Etoh producers currently have excess capacity.


What the detractors don't want you to know is that the ethanol is derived from the starch in the corn feed stock with the remaining byproducts used for other purposes, namely a high-protein animal feed. The detractors also do not use the co-products when computing carbon offsets & such. They focus only on the anhydrous etoh end product, even though the co-products are as much as 1/3 of the production totals. About 1/3 of the corn feedstock ends up as E100, 1/3 ends up as co-products (DDGS, Corn Oil, Corn Syrup) and the remaining 1/3 goes up the scrubber stack as CO2. Right, ethanol production produces an obscene amount of CO2, but the amount of CO2 produced by the yeast when converting the fermentable sugars to alcohol is less than the CO2 uptake that occurs when growing the corn. Sure farming corn is energy and nitrogen intensive, do you honestly think that those cheap-assed farmers are going to waste any fertilizer?

The production of Etoh from corn starch is a completely benign operation, not much different than making homebrew. I work at an 50mmgpy production facility that converts corn from our 900 farmer shareholders, into Etoh and co-products. And guess what, we do not produce any waste product except CO2. That is right, no waste at all, none. We do not even require a water treatment plant on our site. Other than run-off and boiler water surface blow-down, we have no waste water discharge.

If you think that producing a viable motor fuel from a natural feedstock such as #2 corn is a bad thing, you should try producing it from a toxic mixture of a millions-year old slurry of fossilized plant/algae matter. Sure the petroleum ends up with a fuel that is more energy dense, but producing it isn't easy, cheap or clean.

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