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Old 06-05-2013, 12:07 AM   #31
Twin-shocker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish John View Post
Planning to take my new TLR200 to Colorado for a little trail riding in a couple weeks. Going from the Flinthills of Kansas to elevations of 6000-9000 ft. Suggestions for carb adjustments?
To answer your question accurately, if you still have US type induction system on your TLR, then its likely to be jetted very lean anyway, and may well run fine at higher altitudes.

However if the carb is badly worn, this will tend to mean that fuel metering is less precise as well as leading to richer mixture than would have been the case when bike was new. Changing set up to compensate for wear is never likely to work, and replacing a worn carb is the best option.

To improve running noticeably on any US market TLR/Reflex, the induction system can be easily improved by removing the OE carb and fitting a Taiwan made direct replacement (which come properly jetted and set up), removing the stock flame trap and intake silencer from the air box, and modifying it to accept a KN or foam type stub fitting filter.

Taiwan made carbs were selling on Ebay for around $24 last time I looked, and filters are also very reasonably priced.

The set up outlined above will provide increased power and far better running, but will almost certainly need jet sizes reduced if you are riding at altitude, as the base line settings are richer than the US spec OE induction set up used by Honda.

Honda TLR is a bike that can be drastically improved by a few simple and inexpensive alterations, and its possible to make one into a relatively competitive twin-shock trials bike for less money than the cost of a new pair of tyres!
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:02 AM   #32
laser17
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Heres a jetting recommendation from the GasGas parts importer Jim Snell (GasGas USA or old RisingSun website) on correct jetting by model. Note that there are several models that have additional jetting specs for high altitude.

GG USA Jetting Specs by model

You will notice that the pilot jets at high altitude are not leaner than at sea level as one would expect. I dont think Jim is trying to re-write the ideal gas law or anything - just what he found was the best setup at trials like the UTE cup. (very high altitude - as Lineaway can tell you) My dads own jetting Bible had him using a #40 pilot jet for the UTE cup - where his sea level jet was a 38 (small change - but still richer) while the main went down several sizes as expected. I haven't checked the good ol Billy Degaris cheat sheet, but would expect the same.

I know this in NOT a Honda reflex example - but does show that things dont always follow the simple physics because there are other factors involved.
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:40 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
As you seem to be suggesting the exact opposite to that which is correct, and actually seem to believe the nonsense you have posted (even though its very easy to find out that you are wrong completely), then I think the word STUPID is spot on!

Nonsense getting posted up on chat forums (which if it comes from belligerent trolls such as yourself, very rarely gets challenged!), is something that very often leads to those that take such rubbish as being correct experiencing problems, that could have easily been avoided if they had accurate information.

If what you are suggesting is in fact correct, then I am sure you will be able to post up something to clarify the fact that air density increases with altitude, and requires larger carb jets to provide more fuel to compensate for increased air density?

I guess I will be waiting a long time for an apology when you cant find anything to support your claims, but I think admitting they are wrong is something a troll such as yourself is never ever going to do!

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...g/viewall.html

Is a well written piece providing some accurate info on carb set up, which strangely enough doesnt mention the need to increase jet sizes to compensate for reduced air density at higher altitudes....................

You will be waiting a very, very long time for me to apologize to you, and this minor league pissing contest can be solved rather easily. I rode a trial this weekend, at altitude. Although I did not compete on my Reflex I did ride it around, even up to the mid-point of the mountain (approx. 8800ft. of elevation) goofing off and practicing. I competed on it at this same place last year. With it's stock carb and jetting mods outlined by Taxonomy (link in one of my previous posts), it never blubbered, crackled, or misfired. It never has ever since those mods (performed by me, with accompanying pics to prove it somewhere in the "Fun with Outright Junk" forum) were done, and the old gal carburates just fine from 3100ft (our lowest elevation Trial) to over 8000ft. Emphasis on I actually work on my bikes, and compete on them.

What did you do this weekend?
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:18 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by brewtus View Post
You will be waiting a very, very long time for me to apologize to you, and this minor league pissing contest can be solved rather easily. I rode a trial this weekend, at altitude. Although I did not compete on my Reflex I did ride it around, even up to the mid-point of the mountain (approx. 8800ft. of elevation) goofing off and practicing. I competed on it at this same place last year. With it's stock carb and jetting mods outlined by Taxonomy (link in one of my previous posts), it never blubbered, crackled, or misfired. It never has ever since those mods (performed by me, with accompanying pics to prove it somewhere in the "Fun with Outright Junk" forum) were done, and the old gal carburates just fine from 3100ft (our lowest elevation Trial) to over 8000ft. Emphasis on I actually work on my bikes, and compete on them.

What did you do this weekend?

You said it "outright junk"...............if you choose to ride a shitter, rather than spend a little time and money making it an awful lot better then thats up to you entirely. Personally I think the stock TLR is perfect for gentle trail riding, or for non competitive trials riding, but isnt much fun for serious competition.

As to an apology, the fact you have been quite unable to find anything to suggest jet sizes need to be increased to compensate for lower air density, seems to be saying you have admitted you are wrong, and simply dont have the balls to admit it, and apologise for posting nonsense.

"Altitude- Again this is an issue of air density. At sea level atmospheric pressure is around 15 psi and as the altitude increased the atmospheric pressure decreases. Because less pressure is exerted on a measured volume of air as the altitude increases the air molecules are able to relax and they take up more space leaving less space for additional molecules. The higher the altitude the less air in a measured volume and therefore less oxygen present so jetting will have to be leaned to compensate."
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:05 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
You said it "outright junk"...............if you choose to ride a shitter, rather than spend a little time and money making it an awful lot better then thats up to you entirely. Personally I think the stock TLR is perfect for gentle trail riding, or for non competitive trials riding, but isnt much fun for serious competition.

As to an apology, the fact you have been quite unable to find anything to suggest jet sizes need to be increased to compensate for lower air density, seems to be saying you have admitted you are wrong, and simply dont have the balls to admit it, and apologise for posting nonsense.

"Altitude- Again this is an issue of air density. At sea level atmospheric pressure is around 15 psi and as the altitude increased the atmospheric pressure decreases. Because less pressure is exerted on a measured volume of air as the altitude increases the air molecules are able to relax and they take up more space leaving less space for additional molecules. The higher the altitude the less air in a measured volume and therefore less oxygen present so jetting will have to be leaned to compensate."

This is the jetting guide I used. It's been linked before -

I recently purchased a Honda TLR200 Reflex. In stock condition the bike is jetted pitifully lean, is hard starting and has poor throttle response, runs hot and will not idle well.

The TLR is not blessed with a common carburetor that takes common jets. So, fixing the carb is a problem and most people resort to putting a CRF or XR100 carb. There are problems with this. For one the air box boot needs to be stretched over the larger intake of the xr/crf carb. It will get around it but you're stretching 24 year old rubber. Damaging it is a concern and your talking about replacing parts on a bike with many obsolete parts. You'll also need a new throttle cable, and there are conflicting reports if a standard xr or crf cable will work. A good used carb will cost you around $70 on eBay (be sure you get the right one!) and the cable will be about $25 before you get jets.

The good news is you can make the stock carb work very well!

Your going to want to get Honda parts:

99124-076-0400 #40 slow jet. This is the most important and hard to find part. It's some odd Keihin slow jet that isn't commonly stocked. Since it's a very important jet at small throttle openings it's very important for a trials bike. I think this part is actually for a CB400F but it works in the strange PO Keihin carb that comes stock on the TLR. I am not arguing.

99101-GHB-1000 #100 Main Jet. I know that most posts list the 105 main jet, but I used a 100 and like it. Also, the main really only comes into full play with the throttle wide open. So, for this bike it doesn't matter too much and it works great in my application.

16012-KJ2-305 which may have been replaced by 16012-KJ2-672 mine came from my local dealer who ordered it as part 16012-KJ2-305 and that what it says on the package but I couldn't find a reference for it on the web. The kit contains a new needle jet and air screw and also a cap for the air screw that will let you manipulate it even though it's behind a frame tube. It was issued by Honda when it became apparent that the stock carb was hopelessly lean.

If you dissemble and clean your carb this will take care of the lean condition and allow you to retain the stock carb. All up parts should cost around $40.



Don't worry too much about the main jet, you really want the #40 slow jet and the needle. That's going to make everything good up to well past 3/4 throttle. With my air screw 1 1/2 turns out the bike starts on one kick from cold with the choke full on and will run almost instantly with the choke closed. It's very responsive and has much better power than I would have thought it could have.

I am new to trials this year and the TLR will serve me as a novice. It's steet legal so I don't need to load it into a truck to take it out of my urban home to practice and I am sure the problems will come from my lack of skill rather than the bikes short comings.

It's already been geared down and I have a set of the B&J "down and wide" footpegs en route. Real trials tires go on next week. I am booked at a one day skills camp.

You may also want a new air cleaner 17211-KJ2-002and carb rebuild kit 16010-107-305. The air filter and gasket kit will set you back a further $18.


Even though I have posted internet links for all the parts, this was for reference. I recommend buying these parts from a local dealer. In my case the shipping made the parts more expensive than the dealer, and I believe in supporting local businesses. After all when I need something quick I want them to be there. Being known at the parts counter is worth something too. Most dealers will give AMA or other club members a 10% discount.

Happy Jetting.



No jetting theory, real part numbers originally posted by Taxonomy. I used a K&N for an XR100 instead of the OE foam-and-screen with the airbox restrictor removed. All of this was outlined in my "Outright Junk" thread which was a "build it cheap and have fun competing on it" story, one that you evidently have never done. Your jetting theory links are great and all, but to the guys here looking for part numbers they don't mean a damn thing. The above mods work. I've done it, OJ runs very well, and I have competed on it. I'm beginning to believe that you have never done either. Links to theories have nothing to do with horseshit and hatsizes, pard. Work does, and that is evidently something you don't do.


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Old 06-05-2013, 10:07 AM   #36
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Quote:
"Altitude- Again this is an issue of air density. At sea level atmospheric pressure is around 15 psi and as the altitude increased the atmospheric pressure decreases. Because less pressure is exerted on a measured volume of air as the altitude increases the air molecules are able to relax and they take up more space leaving less space for additional molecules. The higher the altitude the less air in a measured volume and therefore less oxygen present so jetting will have to be leaned to compensate."
Brewtus does not need me to defend him, and Lineaway already addressed this issue, but maybe amplification is required. The theory is indeed that increased altitude will cause a bike to run richer, requiring leaner jetting. However, carb adjustments aren't made from theoretical perfection at lower altitude to theoretical perfection at higher altitude. They are made from actual conditions, and if the bike was hopelessly lean at lower altitude it may still need to be enrichened to run well at higher altitude.
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:28 AM   #37
laser17
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Heres another source of GG jetting at altitude from Billy D. (great guy and good friend of the family) He specs that the Pilots go up - mains go down in size. I guess someone should tell him his bikes are law breakers.

http://mypage.direct.ca/b/billyd/ggman.pdf
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:31 AM   #38
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In theory that is all true Twin Shocker. But in practise one would be wise to pay heed to the voices of experience. If lineway, et. al., testify that a larger pilot jet has improved the performance of their TLR at an altitude of 6500 ft, and one lived at or around 6500 ft, of planned to travel to and ride at 6500 ft, then one might want to follow their advice and at least try a larger jet in those circumstances. And then having done so one would have one's own experience to go by. Nothing, absolutely nothing, beats ones own personal experience. You just have to try it and decide for yourself.

Here's my experience:



This is not the lean condition that the stock carb is said to suffer from. I have no idea what size jets are in there or what the PO might have done. Did he drill the pilot jet and over do it? I don't know. Suffice it to say I have some tuning to do. However, the bike runs pretty well. It hauls me around the backyard. It scoots down sand washes in high gear. I can lift the front end with only a little knee bounce. Could it run better? I suspect it can. Would I ride trails right now with it? Sure! Am I an expert on these things? No way. Am I learning about carbs and mixtures and tuning? Yup.
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:36 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewtus View Post
This is the jetting guide I used. It's been linked before -

I recently purchased a Honda TLR200 Reflex. In stock condition the bike is jetted pitifully lean, is hard starting and has poor throttle response, runs hot and will not idle well.

The TLR is not blessed with a common carburetor that takes common jets. So, fixing the carb is a problem and most people resort to putting a CRF or XR100 carb. There are problems with this. For one the air box boot needs to be stretched over the larger intake of the xr/crf carb. It will get around it but you're stretching 24 year old rubber. Damaging it is a concern and your talking about replacing parts on a bike with many obsolete parts. You'll also need a new throttle cable, and there are conflicting reports if a standard xr or crf cable will work. A good used carb will cost you around $70 on eBay (be sure you get the right one!) and the cable will be about $25 before you get jets.

The good news is you can make the stock carb work very well!

Your going to want to get Honda parts:

99124-076-0400 #40 slow jet. This is the most important and hard to find part. It's some odd Keihin slow jet that isn't commonly stocked. Since it's a very important jet at small throttle openings it's very important for a trials bike. I think this part is actually for a CB400F but it works in the strange PO Keihin carb that comes stock on the TLR. I am not arguing.

99101-GHB-1000 #100 Main Jet. I know that most posts list the 105 main jet, but I used a 100 and like it. Also, the main really only comes into full play with the throttle wide open. So, for this bike it doesn't matter too much and it works great in my application.

16012-KJ2-305 which may have been replaced by 16012-KJ2-672 mine came from my local dealer who ordered it as part 16012-KJ2-305 and that what it says on the package but I couldn't find a reference for it on the web. The kit contains a new needle jet and air screw and also a cap for the air screw that will let you manipulate it even though it's behind a frame tube. It was issued by Honda when it became apparent that the stock carb was hopelessly lean.

If you dissemble and clean your carb this will take care of the lean condition and allow you to retain the stock carb. All up parts should cost around $40.



Don't worry too much about the main jet, you really want the #40 slow jet and the needle. That's going to make everything good up to well past 3/4 throttle. With my air screw 1 1/2 turns out the bike starts on one kick from cold with the choke full on and will run almost instantly with the choke closed. It's very responsive and has much better power than I would have thought it could have.

I am new to trials this year and the TLR will serve me as a novice. It's steet legal so I don't need to load it into a truck to take it out of my urban home to practice and I am sure the problems will come from my lack of skill rather than the bikes short comings.

It's already been geared down and I have a set of the B&J "down and wide" footpegs en route. Real trials tires go on next week. I am booked at a one day skills camp.

You may also want a new air cleaner 17211-KJ2-002and carb rebuild kit 16010-107-305. The air filter and gasket kit will set you back a further $18.


Even though I have posted internet links for all the parts, this was for reference. I recommend buying these parts from a local dealer. In my case the shipping made the parts more expensive than the dealer, and I believe in supporting local businesses. After all when I need something quick I want them to be there. Being known at the parts counter is worth something too. Most dealers will give AMA or other club members a 10% discount.

Happy Jetting.



No jetting theory, real part numbers originally posted by Taxonomy. I used a K&N for an XR100 instead of the OE foam-and-screen with the airbox restrictor removed. All of this was outlined in my "Outright Junk" thread which was a "build it cheap and have fun competing on it" story, one that you evidently have never done. Your jetting theory links are great and all, but to the guys here looking for part numbers they don't mean a damn thing. The above mods work. I've done it, OJ runs very well, and I have competed on it. I'm beginning to believe that you have never done either. Links to theories have nothing to do with horseshit and hatsizes, pard. Work does, and that is evidently something you don't do.


Good info, man. Thanks.
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:53 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UtahGuido View Post
Good info, man. Thanks.
No prob, but the thanks really should go to Taxonomy.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:56 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by ridenm View Post
Brewtus does not need me to defend him, and Lineaway already addressed this issue, but maybe amplification is required. The theory is indeed that increased altitude will cause a bike to run richer, requiring leaner jetting. However, carb adjustments aren't made from theoretical perfection at lower altitude to theoretical perfection at higher altitude. They are made from actual conditions, and if the bike was hopelessly lean at lower altitude it may still need to be enrichened to run well at higher altitude.
It seems members of this forum are able to alter the laws of physics at will.............lower air density is something that occurs like it or not at higher altitudes, which will mean overly rich mixture on bikes jetted to run properly at sea level.

Any amount of chat room BS is never ever going to alter that fact, and it seems strange none of those suggesting the BS can alter things, are capable of using Google and finding out they are wrong?
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:00 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by UtahGuido View Post
Good info, man. Thanks.
I get the feeling that anyone who suggests fitting various new parts to a 30 year old carb, whose body is almost certainly badly worn, might also suggest fitting a nice new chain to worn out sprockets is also a good idea................


The brand new Taiwan made carbs are a direct replacement for TLR OE part, and to be honest I cant really see the logic in fitting a new chain to worn sprockets?
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:04 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by UtahGuido View Post
In theory that is all true Twin Shocker. But in practise one would be wise to pay heed to the voices of experience. If lineway, et. al., testify that a larger pilot jet has improved the performance of their TLR at an altitude of 6500 ft, and one lived at or around 6500 ft, of planned to travel to and ride at 6500 ft, then one might want to follow their advice and at least try a larger jet in those circumstances. And then having done so one would have one's own experience to go by. Nothing, absolutely nothing, beats ones own personal experience. You just have to try it and decide for yourself.

Here's my experience:



This is not the lean condition that the stock carb is said to suffer from. I have no idea what size jets are in there or what the PO might have done. Did he drill the pilot jet and over do it? I don't know. Suffice it to say I have some tuning to do. However, the bike runs pretty well. It hauls me around the backyard. It scoots down sand washes in high gear. I can lift the front end with only a little knee bounce. Could it run better? I suspect it can. Would I ride trails right now with it? Sure! Am I an expert on these things? No way. Am I learning about carbs and mixtures and tuning? Yup.
From the look of your plug, it seems to me your fuel level is overly high, and as long as tappet clearances are correct, and ignition system is working properly, I would suggest removing carb and carefully checking for perforated float (very common on these bikes). New floats are available, and will resolve issues with high fuel level, if the original was damaged.
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:58 PM   #44
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hey john

I have a pile of small carbs I will look and see if I have a jet for you, I do have several different sizes of carbs and wont take long to check it out for you... Ill txt you when I figure it out.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:03 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by LarryDawg View Post
I have a pile of small carbs I will look and see if I have a jet for you, I do have several different sizes of carbs and wont take long to check it out for you... Ill txt you when I figure it out.
Larry
Thanks Larry!!
Did you ever get a newer trials bike?
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