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Old 11-10-2013, 09:21 PM   #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRTBYK View Post
That's funny, Garmin changed the image I had linked to on their website that showed the Sunrise/Sunset Time Dashboard. Yet, they still say they don't have Sun/Moon info.

If you browse the Garmin.com/Monterra website you'll get a feel for the rather broad definition Garmin has of an Outdoor Professional.
with this device having the Android app market, don't you think there'll be an app that'll do that?
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Old 11-11-2013, 05:15 PM   #332
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Do you speak Dutch?

Here is a review of the Monterra in Dutch.

If you don't understand Dutch, go to minute 1:00 and you will see this guy throwing the Monterra, er the Oregon on the ground. Concrete ground! He actually throws the thing several yards away, I think it hits a wall and bounces back, hits the ground several times. He also hammers it or on it, and tries to scratch it with a screw driver. You will suffer for 20 seconds... I did... thinking this thing would break, cringing at the sounds it made when it hit the ground and tumbled multiple times. But rest assured, the thing did not break.

On minute 8:00 and a few he will go over the android platform and will show various uses of this platform. Including a skype application, trip advisor, the applications we are used to on a smart phone.

Talking about it, at the very beginning he also made a comparison between the Monterra and the Samsung S4 Active.



Too bad it doesn't work with gloves.
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Old 11-11-2013, 05:43 PM   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
Do you speak Dutch?

Here is a review of the Monterra in Dutch.

If you don't understand Dutch, go to minute 1:00 and you will see this guy throwing the Monterra on the ground. Concrete ground! He actually throws the thing several yards away, I think it hits a wall and bounces back, hits the ground several times. He also hammers it or on it, and tries to scratch it with a screw driver. You will suffer for 20 seconds... I did... thinking this thing would break, cringing at the sounds it made when it hit the ground and tumbled multiple times. But rest assured, the thing did not break.

On minute 8:00 and a few he will go over the android platform and will show various uses of this platform. Including a skype application, trip advisor, the applications we are used to on a smart phone.

Talking about it, at the very beginning he also made a comparison between the Monterra and the Samsung S4 Active.

Too bad it doesn't work with gloves.

Oh yes, check that, 54 meters below sea level...
Keep in mind that these EU reviews were all done using the PR units that were sent out to the "press" back in June 2013. The part I like the most is the throwing the Oregon 650 across the courtyard and hitting it with a hammer! Don' try that with your Samsung G4S Active.

And, it depends upon what gloves your using.
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Old 11-11-2013, 05:54 PM   #334
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with this device having the Android app market, don't you think there'll be an app that'll do that?
Yes, there are several. But, my point really was that there IS a Sunrise/Sunset Garmin app on the Monterra and Garmin use to show a screenshot of it. I just thought it was funny that Marketing and Dev were a bit out of sync -- which is not unusual for many companies.
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Old 11-11-2013, 06:35 PM   #335
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There's certainly some cool stuff on the horizon how bout this guy for 300 Euro?

http://www.mobiletoutterrain.com/EN/...racteristiques
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Old 11-11-2013, 08:41 PM   #336
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What is so wrong with buttons (alongside touch)?
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Old 11-12-2013, 05:49 AM   #337
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What is so wrong with buttons (alongside touch)?
Additional manufacturing expense.
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Old 11-12-2013, 07:29 AM   #338
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Additional manufacturing expense.
$2-$5 per unit in the volumes they do.

Might add a $2K-$5K up front for tooling but that seems negligible. The development costs to integrate are less tangible but shouldn't be more than two or three man-weeks of work. Less if they amortize development across several products.

Well worth it IMO.
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Old 11-12-2013, 07:38 AM   #339
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$2-$5 per unit in the volumes they do.

Might add a $2K-$5K up front for tooling but that seems negligible. The development costs to integrate are less tangible but shouldn't be more than two or three man-weeks of work. Less if they amortize development across several products.

Well worth it IMO.
I like real buttons too, but companies trim expenses where they think they can.
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Old 11-12-2013, 09:41 AM   #340
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I like real buttons too, but companies trim expenses where they think they can.
I sort of think that with the "market" having been transformed over the last several years with the smart phone revolution, has forgotten the value of buttons.

Perhaps the perceived value to manufacturers of adding buttons just isn't great enough. Hopefully at some point the pendulum swings and the "market" finds the value. I think a lot of vehicle GPS users would find them valuable but even many of them have also forgotten that value. The comments here certainly support that there is at least some perceived value to this market segment.

One big problem is that I'm not optimistic the really huge "market" with regards to phones will see the value anytime soon. We can only hope the overall market with other devices like vehicle GPS's will see that value and make it known by either their $$$ or a receptive manufacturer.

From experience with other products, I think it's safe to say that while vehicle use with Monterra is supported, it's not really being developed as a vehicle GPS.
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:03 AM   #341
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I sort of think that with the "market" having been transformed over the last several years with the smart phone revolution, has forgotten the value of buttons.

Perhaps the perceived value to manufacturers of adding buttons just isn't great enough. Hopefully at some point the pendulum swings and the "market" finds the value. I think a lot of vehicle GPS users would find them valuable but even many of them have also forgotten that value. The comments here certainly support that there is at least some perceived value to this market segment.

One big problem is that I'm not optimistic the really huge "market" with regards to phones will see the value anytime soon. We can only hope the overall market with other devices like vehicle GPS's will see that value and make it known by either their $$$ or a receptive manufacturer.

From experience with other products, I think it's safe to say that while vehicle use with Monterra is supported, it's not really being developed as a vehicle GPS.
[OPINION]
I think "the Market" has spoken and "they" don't seem to care about h/w buttons. Of the small form-factor GPS units, most on the market have buttons - only because the screen tech dictates the use of buttons.

I believe in the value of h/w buttons if they are s/w programmable - two or three max. The problem with the larger units like the Montana or Monterra is real estate. The in-car units, I doubt that we'll every see h/w buttons again because most consumers see more value in larger display size and voice activation - handsfree operation.

I also expect this discussion will degrade into a "distracted driving" discussion and we all know that talking is the number one distraction since the invention of the wheel.
[/OPINION]
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:24 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by DRTBYK View Post
[OPINION]...
I believe in the value of h/w buttons if they are s/w programmable - two or three max. The problem with the larger units like the Montana or Monterra is real estate. The in-car units, I doubt that we'll every see h/w buttons again because most consumers see more value in larger display size and voice activation - handsfree operation...
[/OPINION]
I like the idea of both s/w programmable and fixed function.

You have some points about in-car.

Funny though. I know it's a different market but the fundamental uses aren't really that different - I seriously doubt we will see much in the way of touch-only in the aviation market. Definitely a more sophisticated market though...
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:50 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by SteveAZ
From experience with other products, I think it's safe to say that while vehicle use with Monterra is supported, it's not really being developed as a vehicle GPS.
From a physical perspective I agree. From a S/W perspective I think you are making my point that, "if a Garmin device is going to support Along-road Routing then it should have the same fundamental features/functions that ALL Garmin routing devices have." and not some fragile sub-set.

Quote:
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I like the idea of both s/w programmable and fixed function.

You have some points about in-car.

Funny though. I know it's a different market but the fundamental uses aren't really that different - I seriously doubt we will see much in the way of touch-only in the aviation market. Definitely a more sophisticated market though...
Some of my flyer-friends are very skilled and tech savvy - I don't know if I'd use the word "sophisticated" to describe them though.

Even in the cockpit though buttons/switches have reduced significantly over the past 10yrs. and the "glass-cockpit" is ever increasing. Besides don't you watch movies? All things physical are going away - holograms are the future.

BMW has recognized that "programmable-buttons" on a Motorcycle are quite valuable. The Navigator-V and it's interface with the new models (GS & K1600GT/L) Multi-Controller is clearly something the Moto market will be paying attention to. As a partner in the development of the Nav-V with BMW, Garmin certainly sees what one large Mfg'er and customer set are interested in. I've been hearing a lot of very positive feedback on the Nav-V/Multi-Controller combination.
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Old 11-12-2013, 11:07 AM   #344
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Talking Monterra keypad accessory

Buttons while reliable in harsh environments are a pain to include (cost, complexity, part count, space etc, etc.) so if a screen does the serve the same function it is a much simpler product development. It is hard to argue FOR buttons in a design meeting.

I like buttons, but hardly include them in my designs if there is an alternative.
If Garmin or an AVD techy offers a keypad that plugs into a port on the GPS I think it would sell in moderate numbers so the price would reflect this.
The keypad can be mounted on the handlebars or center console by the shifter.

We all have functions we prefer, mine would be:

Zoon In, Zoom Out, a programmable macro to change to a new route (this would be handy even on a soft button), a change of dashboard (Montana lingo) to have more data displayed for a moment away from a map navigation screen…
The ideal would be to make the buttons programmable with a simple command, or macro.

Of course it would be easy for Garmin to do, but the market might not be large enough for them. Any third party would need some sort of development kit… I don’t know how feasible that would be.

Those of us wanting buttons would have them… at a price.
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Old 11-12-2013, 11:45 AM   #345
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Buttons while reliable in harsh environments are a pain to include (cost, complexity, part count, space etc, etc.) so if a screen does the serve the same function it is a much simpler product development. It is hard to argue FOR buttons in a design meeting.....
They really aren't that much of a pain. Cost per unit is typically at around or even under 1% of total cost to manufacture in products like these. At least if their designed right. They take up real estate on the bezel but there seems to be room in these products.

Experience for me is that it is hard to argue for buttons in the design meeting. A lot of the counter argument is like you say (we don't need them) but even more so in the last few years that they think a more iPhone-like experience is appealing. This may be true for the less sophisticated.... errrr the less tech-savvy consumers. Even pilots (and other non-consumers) find the iPhone-like experience appealing but they generally place function way above appeal... And while from a product development perspective I accept that appeal is important, especially in setting yourself apart from competition, product marketing folks seem to over-emphasize it...




Regardless..... I want buttons.... Waaaaaaaahhhhhhh...


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