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Old 07-11-2013, 07:59 AM   #211
Navy Chief
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
The price of raw commodities has little to do with most food costs, most of the costs are in processing, packaging and distribution and ethanol helps reduce fuel costs.

Take ethanol out of the picture and your fuel cost will jump.
Your statements are an exercise in concentrated stupid.

Raw materials costs will always effect the cost of the product being produced, no manufacturer is just going to eat the cost.

I am paying the same cost for non-ethanol fuel as the 10% ethanol fuel already so no my fuel costs will not jump.
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Old 07-11-2013, 08:18 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
Your statements are an exercise in concentrated stupid.

Raw materials costs will always effect the cost of the product being produced, no manufacturer is just going to eat the cost.

I am paying the same cost for non-ethanol fuel as the 10% ethanol fuel already so no my fuel costs will not jump.
Sure it will when you remove 10% of the motor fuel supply. Just watch prices jump.
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:21 AM   #213
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I've been testing the fuel in my area with one of these simple ethanol testers from Ebay
( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=121138347163)

So far all the regular gasoline (3) has 10% ethanol and all the high test (3) have 0% ethanol.

Maybe the blenders just put the ethanol in the regular lower grade which is their high volume seller? BTW, all the fuel comes in the same pipeline as pure gasoline.

Since you should get better MPG I'm thinking the high test is a better price performer?

Also tested two different stations that advertise ethanol free and they were correct. But why pay the premium for advertised " ethanol free" when high test appears to be "ethanol free"?

Some of you should get this tester ($10.99 free shipping) and report back your results. The alcohol in the up to 10% gas mixes with the water in the tester and raises the separation line between the water and gasoline to show the ethanol percentage. Simple test but works.
FWIW I started another thread on this to get more feedback on the subject so as to not mess up this wonderful thread. I put it in road warriors.
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:22 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
Don't be an idiot. The tax credit ended 18 months ago and when it did fuel prices were raised by the distributors to make up the difference. The price of raw commodities has little to do with most food costs, most of the costs are in processing, packaging and distribution and ethanol helps reduce fuel costs. Take ethanol out of the picture and your fuel cost will jump.

It appears that you want farmers to go back to producing crops at below the cost of production prices and receive massive subsidies from the government and at the same time you would also have gasoline prices increase $1.50. That's sweet.

Your final statement is an exersise in concentrated stupid.
FUCK YOU and the horse you rode in on!!

you are an idiot and fucking delusional if you think multiplying price of corn will not have an effect on food prices.

just now found out about the screwing ethanol lobby has hoisted on the American public.....
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Old 07-11-2013, 10:03 AM   #215
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FUCK YOU and the horse you rode in on!!

you are an idiot and fucking delusional if you think multiplying price of corn will not have an effect on food prices.

just now found out about the screwing ethanol lobby has hoisted on the American public.....
I didn't say it didn't.

I said that it's a relatively minor component in the cost of many items and that removing 10% of the fuel supply by eliminating ethanol would raise gas prices significantly and that farmers would be back to requiring subsidizes because commodity prices would be well below the cost of production.

One way or another the cost to feed and fuel the country has to be paid. Now go piss up a rope, you moron.
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Old 07-11-2013, 10:31 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
I didn't say it didn't.

I said that it's a relatively minor component in the cost of many items and that removing 10% of the fuel supply by eliminating ethanol would raise gas prices significantly and that farmers would be back to requiring subsidizes because commodity prices would be well below the cost of production.

One way or another the cost to feed and fuel the country has to be paid. Now go piss up a rope, you moron.
Why can't we just let this wonderful thing called free market work it's magic. Stop all of the tax breaks and subsidies... There is no reason that the price of the commodity needs to be under the cost of production, the only reason this worked in the first place is because the subsides existed. All that has to happen is for the farmer to refuse to sell the commodity until the market price matches the production cost with a reasonable profit. Supply and Demand economics dictate that if there is no commodity available on the market the price will necessarily go up. This is simple stuff and works as long as the govt is not screwing with the markets like they have been for a really long time.


BTW in a truly free market ethanol would be a very regional fuel choice, close to the farms and close to the production. And it would have to be significantly cheaper that pure gas to make sense to switch over...
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Old 07-11-2013, 11:03 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
Why can't we just let this wonderful thing called free market work it's magic. Stop all of the tax breaks and subsidies... There is no reason that the price of the commodity needs to be under the cost of production, the only reason this worked in the first place is because the subsides existed. All that has to happen is for the farmer to refuse to sell the commodity until the market price matches the production cost with a reasonable profit. Supply and Demand economics dictate that if there is no commodity available on the market the price will necessarily go up. This is simple stuff and works as long as the govt is not screwing with the markets like they have been for a really long time.


BTW in a truly free market ethanol would be a very regional fuel choice, close to the farms and close to the production. And it would have to be significantly cheaper that pure gas to make sense to switch over...
It's not nearly as simple as that in the real world. Not by a long shot. First you'd need the justice dept to break up all the major multinationals into a thousand smaller players, other wise you still have big guys able to manipulate the market. When millions of farmers are all competing with each other and have only a handfull of major merchants and dealers to buy inputs from and sell product to it ain't a free market and it doesn't work very well......unless you enjoy the roller coaster ride of booms and busts.
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:33 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
When millions of farmers are all competing with each other...
The very definition of a free market. As has been pointed out repeatedly, we would not have ethanol fuel if not for massive government subsidies. And it makes no sense to use food as a fuel. Since the price of corn has tripled or quadrupled, it's created a ripple effect on things like tortillas.... and gas prices.



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Old 07-12-2013, 06:41 AM   #219
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The very definition of a free market. As has been pointed out repeatedly, we would not have ethanol fuel if not for massive government subsidies. And it makes no sense to use food as a fuel. Since the price of corn has tripled or quadrupled, it's created a ripple effect on things like tortillas.... and gas prices.



1911fan
It's lowered gas prices and caused minor increases in basic food costs.


Btw, the free market sucks when it comes to long term strategic planning. Using tax policy and subsidies as a means of directing economic growth towards desired results has a long, sucessful track record.
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:45 AM   #220
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Local fuel depot has 91 non-ethanol (and 101LL ) at the pump.
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:18 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
It's not nearly as simple as that in the real world. Not by a long shot. First you'd need the justice dept to break up all the major multinationals into a thousand smaller players, other wise you still have big guys able to manipulate the market. When millions of farmers are all competing with each other and have only a handfull of major merchants and dealers to buy inputs from and sell product to it ain't a free market and it doesn't work very well......unless you enjoy the roller coaster ride of booms and busts.
Source: U.S. USDA. National Agricultural Statistics Service. Crop Production. March 8, 2013.

Corn is grown on over 400,000 U.S. farms.

Millions of farmers might be stretching it a bit....

And nothing is stopping the farmers from forming their own co-op to market their crops through, nothing is forcing them to go through one clearinghouse.

Some more food for thought:
Corn is the top crop for subsidy payments. The Energy Policy Act of 2005 mandates that billions of gallons of ethanol be blended into vehicle fuel each year, guaranteeing demand, but US corn ethanol subsidies are between $5.5 billion and $7.3 billion per year. Producers also benefited from a federal subsidy of 51 cents per gallon, additional state subsidies, and federal crop subsidies that can bring the total to 85 cents per gallon or more. However, the federal ethanol subsidy expired December 31, 2011.

Would the ethanol industry have survived and grown with any of this? I doubt it....

If it were not mandated to be blended into fuels today I am not sure it would survive either, there are too many issues with it.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:13 PM   #222
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stevie88's method of arguing: If you can't dazzle them with bullshit, baffle them with even more bullshit.

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Old 07-12-2013, 07:44 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Navy Chief View Post
Source: U.S. USDA. National Agricultural Statistics Service. Crop Production. March 8, 2013.

Corn is grown on over 400,000 U.S. farms.

Millions of farmers might be stretching it a bit....

And nothing is stopping the farmers from forming their own co-op to market their crops through, nothing is forcing them to go through one clearinghouse.

Some more food for thought:
Corn is the top crop for subsidy payments. The Energy Policy Act of 2005 mandates that billions of gallons of ethanol be blended into vehicle fuel each year, guaranteeing demand, but US corn ethanol subsidies are between $5.5 billion and $7.3 billion per year. Producers also benefited from a federal subsidy of 51 cents per gallon, additional state subsidies, and federal crop subsidies that can bring the total to 85 cents per gallon or more. However, the federal ethanol subsidy expired December 31, 2011.

Would the ethanol industry have survived and grown with any of this? I doubt it....

If it were not mandated to be blended into fuels today I am not sure it would survive either, there are too many issues with it.
I call bullshit here. The law requires that 'billion's of gallons of a RENEWABLE fuel be blended into our national motor fuel pool. Says nothing about it being corn-starch derived ethanol. If you don't like it being ethanol, then I would suggest that you get off your dead butt and develop another alternative, otherwise stfu.

There is, in fact a limit on how much of the renewable fuel standard that, by law, can be obtained by corn-starch derived ethanol, and we've pretty much reached that limit. There is currently more ethanol production available than the market will bear. This glut (due to the 2008-10 recession) has served to weed out the speculators and has also resulted in the oil companies purchasing a large number of ethanol production facilities. Valero is now the #3 ethanol producer in the US, behind ADM & POET. This fact pisses me off, my company being a small, coorperatively owned, ethanol producer; the fact that a huge oil company now owns a major portion of the production capacity of a renewable like Etoh is a travesty.

If you do not believe that a portion of this country's fuel supply should be produced from a renewable source, then go ahead and keep nursing on petroleum's tit.

cheers,
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:18 PM   #224
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I call bullshit here. The law requires that 'billion's of gallons of a RENEWABLE fuel be blended into our national motor fuel pool. Says nothing about it being corn-starch derived ethanol. If you don't like it being ethanol, then I would suggest that you get off your dead butt and develop another alternative, otherwise stfu.

There is, in fact a limit on how much of the renewable fuel standard that, by law, can be obtained by corn-starch derived ethanol, and we've pretty much reached that limit. There is currently more ethanol production available than the market will bear. This glut (due to the 2008-10 recession) has served to weed out the speculators and has also resulted in the oil companies purchasing a large number of ethanol production facilities. Valero is now the #3 ethanol producer in the US, behind ADM & POET. This fact pisses me off, my company being a small, coorperatively owned, ethanol producer; the fact that a huge oil company now owns a major portion of the production capacity of a renewable like Etoh is a travesty.

If you do not believe that a portion of this country's fuel supply should be produced from a renewable source, then go ahead and keep nursing on petroleum's tit.

cheers,
melby

Melby, teaching these ignorant numbskulls anything is like fucking with a limp dick.
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:35 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
It's lowered gas prices and caused minor increases in basic food costs.


Btw, the free market sucks when it comes to long term strategic planning. Using tax policy and subsidies as a means of directing economic growth towards desired results has a long, sucessful track record.
you are full of shit as a christmas turkey .. and gobble just as loud before turkey got wacked!!!

-------
CNN) -- Because of the severe heat and drought in the Midwest, global food prices are going up. Why? Because the U.S. is the leading producer and exporter of staple grains. We are for food production what Saudi Arabia is for oil production. Our crop shortages have ripple effects throughout the food system and disrupt the global markets, especially in the food-insecure nations. The U.S. hasn't reached 2008's level of high food prices yet because rice and wheat stocks are ample. These are the two most important food grains for human consumption worldwide.
Corn and soybean levels are extremely tight, and their prices have skyrocketed since June. However, these two grains are mostly used as livestock feeds. Corn is also diverted to produce ethanol because of our government mandate.
Opinion: Extreme heat and droughts -- a recipe for world food woes
Kay McDonald


Earlier this month, the United Nations urged the U.S. to ease its ethanol mandate. The origin of this policy goes back to 2005 when Congress set requirements of corn to be used for automotive fuel. In 2007, the Energy Independence and Security Act greatly increased those requirements to improve air quality and become more energy secure. Behind the scenes, however, corn and other agricultural lobbyists were promoting the mandate to create a larger market for corn. Using current numbers, this year's ethanol mandate would theoretically require 44% of this year's corn crop, a third of which is recycled back as distillers grains for livestock feed.
We are being told by the ethanol producers, the corn growers and Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack that eliminating the ethanol mandate would not significantly reduce global food costs. But how could that be when roughly 14% of the world's corn crop is being converted into ethanol in the U.S.? In addition to corn being used for biofuel, taxpayer-subsidized biodiesel is using up more soybeans each year.
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