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Old 07-29-2013, 07:52 PM   #421
the_sandman_454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k-moe View Post
Backwards compatibility only works for Biodiesel if you already have a diesel vehicle. For 90% of U.S. vehicle owners there is no real difference between a change to 85% ethanol blends and a change to Biodiesel. Both require buying a new vehicle, and modifying (or scrapping) existing vehicles.

Do you work for the Association of Diesel Engine Manufacturers? j/k
You're thinking of only consumers. There's an awful lot of trucks, semis, tractors, busses, and other transportation out there that already have diesel engines that are compatible with biodiesel blends.

I have no vested interest in either biodiesel or ethanol, except to understand I don't want tax money squandered on either. I understand from a practical standpoint that biodiesel makes a bunch more sense than ethanol does both now and longer term. It has better energy density and can be made from things like algae, and there's already millions of engines out there that will run on it just fine.

As to manufacturers not rating their engines specifically for higher biodiesel blends, that is likely an emissions issue, or assumed to be since the manufacturer would have to try out every biodiesel made from every different source to properly certify it for emissions. The pretty much absolute lack of sulfur in biodiesel seems to offset the increased NOx emissions possible. The government getting in the way of a viable product yet again.
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:43 PM   #422
stevie88
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Originally Posted by the_sandman_454 View Post
You're thinking of only consumers. There's an awful lot of trucks, semis, tractors, busses, and other transportation out there that already have diesel engines that are compatible with biodiesel blends.

I have no vested interest in either biodiesel or ethanol, except to understand I don't want tax money squandered on either. I understand from a practical standpoint that biodiesel makes a bunch more sense than ethanol does both now and longer term. It has better energy density and can be made from things like algae, and there's already millions of engines out there that will run on it just fine.

As to manufacturers not rating their engines specifically for higher biodiesel blends, that is likely an emissions issue, or assumed to be since the manufacturer would have to try out every biodiesel made from every different source to properly certify it for emissions. The pretty much absolute lack of sulfur in biodiesel seems to offset the increased NOx emissions possible. The government getting in the way of a viable product yet again.
Biodiesel has issues with algae growth in storage that causes problems in fuel systems.
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:44 PM   #423
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You're thinking of only consumers.
Well...this is a motorcycle forum. Silly me for thinking of that context as being appropriate.
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Old 07-30-2013, 02:51 AM   #424
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Well...this is a motorcycle forum. Silly me for thinking of that context as being appropriate.
Appropriate to the forum, but completely not "big picture" type considerations. The commercial applications use a significant amount of fuel and reducing the price of this fuel if possible by giving petro diesel some competition could stand to reduce prices on all sorts of things consumers use by bringing transportation expenses down.

As far as E85, do you think someone with a dirtbike is going to really want significantly less range than he already gets from his 2 gallon tank on pure gasoline or E10? I am amazed that motorcyclists with already pretty limited range wouldn't be 100% against anything that would further reduce the range. I mean eventually they're going to mandate everything at all run on the ethanol farce including bikes.
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Old 07-30-2013, 05:52 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by the_sandman_454 View Post
Appropriate to the forum, but completely not "big picture" type considerations. The commercial applications use a significant amount of fuel and reducing the price of this fuel if possible by giving petro diesel some competition could stand to reduce prices on all sorts of things consumers use by bringing transportation expenses down.

As far as E85, do you think someone with a dirtbike is going to really want significantly less range than he already gets from his 2 gallon tank on pure gasoline or E10? I am amazed that motorcyclists with already pretty limited range wouldn't be 100% against anything that would further reduce the range. I mean eventually they're going to mandate everything at all run on the ethanol farce including bikes.
That's a pretty big stretch there. Eventually we'll all be dead too.
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Old 07-30-2013, 04:10 PM   #426
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E15-20 in a Big Twin

I can see the benefits or running a higher EToh blend in a motorcycle like a large displacement v-twin, the higher octane and also evaporative cooling effect of the fuel would be positive. Sure there would be less overall energy in the fuel per unit volume, but the benefits would certainly overcome the ~10% mileage penalty. More power, less prone to ping or knock, what's not to like.

Nascar has been running an E15 blend for the last few years. No doubt that they are using a bit more fuel, but energy is still just energy, you can't get out more than you put in.

Quote:
But fuel is fundamental in racing, and making the decision to switch to a drastically different formula was not only a matter of science but of overall vision.

"There was a significant degree of caution from the start and we had to be absolutely certain,'' said Dr. Mike Lynch, managing director of NASCAR Green Innovation. "We had to take all the risk out through hard work, time and careful analysis. We needed performance without compromise and we've ended up with all the good things and no negative trade-offs.''

The 15-percent ethanol blend has transitioned from carburetors to fuel injection engines and from the Car of Tomorrow to the 2013 debut of the Generation-6 cars, thanks to a concerted and diverse effort from NASCAR, its teams, manufacturers and a nearly three-year old partnership with the American Ethanol industry.

Hundreds of man-hours and even more manpower went into developing this project through track tests, engineering trials and engine dynos. That effort resulted in an E15 blend that produces 20 percent less emissions from the race cars, and just as importantly, a 9 to 12 horsepower increase.

Why do you thing those large displacement aviation engines were able to make so much power, no doubt it had something to do with 130 octane gas, complete with Dow provided Tetra Ethyl Lead. Do some research on the early days of gasoline, when Standard Oil and Dow were in collusion to corner the market on high octane gas using Dow's proprietary heavy metal additive.

AGE, Aviation Grade Ethanol, as a replacement for 100LL...
Quote:
Jack Johnson, founder of aircraft engine manufacturer Texas Skyways says AGE85 offers the best long-term alternative to AVGAS shortages. AGE85 is distilled from corn, a process that eliminates any dependence on foreign oil supplies. It’s also cleaner and produces more engine power than AVGAS, meaning engines will be able to have longer TBOs.

High-octane automotive gas in and of itself is an alternative and is currently used (both with and without FAA approval) in areas where AVGAS is difficult to come by. But Johnson notes that automotive gas is not of uniformly high quality, and so it's difficult for owners to know exactly what is running in their engines or what kind of damage might be done from poor quality fuel.
EToh based fuels are going to be the replacement for gasoline in certain markets.

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Old 07-31-2013, 05:40 PM   #427
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Ethanol in gas getting a lot of supportive comments from this commentary piece.

http://news.yahoo.com/time-america-e...104000705.html
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:15 AM   #428
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Ethanol in gas getting a lot of supportive comments from this commentary piece.

http://news.yahoo.com/time-america-e...104000705.html
Haha, Toooooons of support. I've always thought this was one of America's dumbest farm movements.
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:32 PM   #429
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Swimmer and shadman are easily impressed by half baked bullshit.
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:58 PM   #430
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Not half as impressed as you seem to be by anything the ethanol fanboiz squirt out their rectums.


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Old 08-02-2013, 08:07 PM   #431
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
Biodiesel has issues with algae growth in storage that causes problems in fuel systems.
Oh come on. It's not a problem to produce billions of gallons of ethanol or any other additive package that a company wants to mix to with gasoline according to their blend, but adding antimicrobial (and for that matter, anti-sludging for the cold weather) agents to biodiesel is suddenly a problem?
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:04 PM   #432
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I don't understand the either/or argument. No economy should be based on a single fuel type. Diversity=resilience and resistance to failure, no matter what type of system you look at.
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Old 08-03-2013, 06:52 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by k-moe View Post
I don't understand the either/or argument. No economy should be based on a single fuel type. Diversity=resilience and resistance to failure, no matter what type of system you look at.
I'm with you 100%!
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:15 AM   #434
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You will get less milage out of gas that has ANY volume of alcohol of any nature in it, period. Its mathmatical, due to it taking a larger volume of alcohol to air to achieve a sufficent fuel/air ratio.
There are two main reasons it is an idea fuel for certain racing applications: first,it has a much higher octane rating than gasoline, thereby supporting higher compression ratios. Second, because it takes so much more liquid in the charge volume, and liquids are non-compressible, it futher raises the running compression ratio. Ask any kart racer. All things else being equal, simply converting and engine to run alcohol, at the proper ratio, will gain horsepower.
That being said, there is no benefit for it to be in any highway vehicle. Not for emmissions, not for power benefits, and not cause " its good for ol Farmer John". I've run all the claimed numbers back when this was first a big issue and it doesnt add up anyway you try to swing it. And, dont believe for a second that its STILL not benefiting Big Oil. Its like the cartels cutting the cocaine with filler. They sell more product, cause now its not going as far, and the price NEVER went down!
Folks can keep feeling warm and fuzzy about it all they want, but everyone is getting screwed.
Oh, BTW, ol RANCHER John isnt liking the increased feed prices either. What about him?
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Old 08-03-2013, 03:48 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by BigShooter View Post
You will get less milage out of gas that has ANY volume of alcohol of any nature in it, period. Its mathmatical, due to it taking a larger volume of alcohol to air to achieve a sufficent fuel/air ratio.
There are two main reasons it is an idea fuel for certain racing applications: first,it has a much higher octane rating than gasoline, thereby supporting higher compression ratios. Second, because it takes so much more liquid in the charge volume, and liquids are non-compressible, it futher raises the running compression ratio. Ask any kart racer. All things else being equal, simply converting and engine to run alcohol, at the proper ratio, will gain horsepower.
That being said, there is no benefit for it to be in any highway vehicle. Not for emmissions, not for power benefits, and not cause " its good for ol Farmer John".
How about the benefit that it is a renewable source of energy that doesn't have to be imported? We're importing on the order to 500,000 barrels per day of gasoline and the blending components to make gasoline. The EToh industry is currently contributing ~800,000 bpd of product for blending into the nations fuel supply.

EIA Website:
http://www.eia.gov/oog/info/twip/twi...tml#production

Yes, it doesn't have the energy density of gasoline, so what. It is a product than can and is being used to offset our demand for imported gasoline blending components. Yes, it is currently produced from the starch in field corn, not a terribly efficient process, but viable nonetheless. It has been demonstrated that the current production methods are carbon neutral.

cheers,
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