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Old 08-03-2013, 04:02 PM   #436
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Old 08-03-2013, 07:32 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by pmelby View Post
How about the benefit that it is a renewable source of energy that doesn't have to be imported? We're importing on the order to 500,000 barrels per day of gasoline and the blending components to make gasoline.
I just dont see why it matters where the oil comes from. The same companies are importing it that drill and pump it here. They dont own any of the land where they extract it anywhere, as far as I can tell. It is all leased. All of it here that is not coming off privately owned property belongs to us, i.e. the people, to begin with. In any case, there is no absolute need to import any of it. But, we know the stories behind that, whether big oil's or the gubment's. Dont get me wrong, Im no spokesperson for EITHER side of that mess. Also, I am all for using renewable source for whatever it may be, or recycling, etc.. However, we aint gonna corn fuel ourselves free of petroleum, and regardless of what it "saves" in imported or domestic oil, it doesnt make up for the added usage necessary from decreased milage. It just doesnt. I cant help but believe there are other technologies out there that are being suppressed, be it for corporate greed or whatever.
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:22 PM   #438
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You will get less milage out of gas that has ANY volume of alcohol of any nature in it, period. Its mathmatical, due to it taking a larger volume of alcohol to air to achieve a sufficent fuel/air ratio.
There are two main reasons it is an idea fuel for certain racing applications: first,it has a much higher octane rating than gasoline, thereby supporting higher compression ratios. Second, because it takes so much more liquid in the charge volume, and liquids are non-compressible, it futher raises the running compression ratio. Ask any kart racer. All things else being equal, simply converting and engine to run alcohol, at the proper ratio, will gain horsepower.
That being said, there is no benefit for it to be in any highway vehicle. Not for emmissions, not for power benefits, and not cause " its good for ol Farmer John". I've run all the claimed numbers back when this was first a big issue and it doesnt add up anyway you try to swing it. And, dont believe for a second that its STILL not benefiting Big Oil. Its like the cartels cutting the cocaine with filler. They sell more product, cause now its not going as far, and the price NEVER went down!
Folks can keep feeling warm and fuzzy about it all they want, but everyone is getting screwed.
Oh, BTW, ol RANCHER John isnt liking the increased feed prices either. What about him?
Screw rancher John. For decades he pretended he was above it all and too good to take government subsidies all while feeding his cattle cheap corn. That corn was cheap because the government subsidized farmers to grow it and sell it at prices below the cost of production.
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:45 PM   #439
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I just dont see why it matters where the oil comes from.
I'm pretty sure that we'll never go to war in order to secure domestic sources of oil.
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:11 AM   #440
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I'm pretty sure that we'll never go to war in order to secure domestic sources of oil.


Not to mention the negative effect importing oil has on our trade balance.
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:52 PM   #441
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Why a mod hasn't punted this fetid turd of a thread to CSM is a mystery to me.
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Old 08-04-2013, 06:33 PM   #442
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Why a mod hasn't punted this fetid turd of a thread to CSM is a mystery to me.
I think they all abandoned thread about a month ago.
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:18 PM   #443
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I could only read about 17 pages straight, and jumped to the end.

As much as I've learned from all the links provided (thanks, btw), what amazes me most is that the same people are still arguing after 30 pages. Impressive, really. I guess it's not so hard to believe that with all the money involved, things get heated and personal.

It will be interesting to see where this all goes. Kind of off topic, but I've seen a few natural gas vehicles, mostly in Europe where gas is much more expensive. I'm curious as to whether anyone's ever seen a NatGas powered motorcycle...
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:31 PM   #444
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One of the Thunderstruck boys converted a Yamaha Apex snowmobile to run on propane a few years ago.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:47 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by Krasniewski View Post
I could only read about 17 pages straight, and jumped to the end.

As much as I've learned from all the links provided (thanks, btw), what amazes me most is that the same people are still arguing after 30 pages. Impressive, really. I guess it's not so hard to believe that with all the money involved, things get heated and personal.

It will be interesting to see where this all goes. Kind of off topic, but I've seen a few natural gas vehicles, mostly in Europe where gas is much more expensive. I'm curious as to whether anyone's ever seen a NatGas powered motorcycle...
If you think that the energy density of EToh is bad, consider that it requires a 70l (18.5gal) CNG tank to give the equivalent energy of 5.2gal of gas (GGE).

That would be like building the bike around a 11x50" steel cylinder weighing 150lbs.

http://www.americancng.com/cylinders/type-1-ki1150.html



CNG and or LPG power has been used for decades, especially by fleet operators trying to avoid road tax, etc. Doesn't translate well to a two wheeled machine.

cheers,
melby
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pmelby screwed with this post 08-05-2013 at 02:53 AM Reason: added l to g conversion
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:57 AM   #446
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That would be like building the bike around a 11x50" steel cylinder weighing 150lbs.
I feel like I've been issued a challenge...

Seriously though - good info - thanks!
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:17 PM   #447
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That would be like building the bike around a 11x50" steel cylinder weighing 150lbs.
It would make sense for most people in the U.S. since the majority treat their motorcycles as toys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfLryoLqoq4
No more crab troubles to sort out...much less engine maintenance required overall.
BTW....fiberglass CNG tanks have been around for a few years...much lighter, just as safe.

k-moe screwed with this post 08-05-2013 at 12:22 PM
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:15 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by k-moe View Post
It would make sense for most people in the U.S. since the majority treat their motorcycles as toys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfLryoLqoq4
No more crab troubles to sort out...much less engine maintenance required overall.
BTW....fiberglass CNG tanks have been around for a few years...much lighter, just as safe.
They could probably even lighten it up a little farther with carbon fiber. It is an interesting idea, but needs an infusion of technology to help it scale down to bikes a little easier.

If they could shrink one down, an electric bike powered by a hydrogen fuel cell would be kind of cool, and have advantages over battery electric since (if you can find a source of H2) it could be refilled quickly. Of course the downside to H2 is it isn't the easiest or most efficient thing to procure and still requires a bunch of energy to do it.

I'm not opposed to alternatives for gas/diesel. I just don't like the government mandating any of them.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:45 PM   #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmelby View Post
If you think that the energy density of EToh is bad, consider that it requires a 70l (18.5gal) CNG tank to give the equivalent energy of 5.2gal of gas (GGE).

That would be like building the bike around a 11x50" steel cylinder weighing 150lbs.

http://www.americancng.com/cylinders/type-1-ki1150.html



CNG and or LPG power has been used for decades, especially by fleet operators trying to avoid road tax, etc. Doesn't translate well to a two wheeled machine.

cheers,
melby
Isn't that Ducatis new prototype MotoGP chassis?
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Old 08-05-2013, 05:46 PM   #450
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Isn't that Ducatis new prototype MotoGP chassis?
Ducati is going this route after the problems associated with their PA-6 nylon tanks and crappy ethanol gas. One thing about the CNG cylinder, it is good until 2024.

cheers,
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