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Old 06-28-2013, 06:02 AM   #106
stevie88
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Originally Posted by Turbo View Post
ahh, no it's not, because it's MANDATED to be blended into the fuel. If not for that mandate, and left completely to the consumer, it would flat out fail. ie, NOT economically competitive.
You nitwit, it's mandated because petroleum companies control the distribution chain. Ethanol takes a bite out of their market share and their bottom line. You can be sure that most consumers given the choice would buy whatever fuel is cheaper and ethanol blends are cheaper. Ethanol is economically competitive, just fire up your google machine and check out the spot prices for ethanol and gasoline.

I've spent quite a bit of time in Brazil the past 10 years. They offer alcohol blends as well as pure alcohol and most of the cars there are dual fuel ready. Drivers there understand the mpg hit they'll git using 100% alcohol and are smart enough to calculate the cost per mile when making their fuel purchase and make their choice accordingly. Alcohol is generally about 40% cheaper than the blended gasoline.
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Old 06-28-2013, 06:18 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
So provide proof of your argument. I gave you a non-partisan congressional budget office report that debases your theory. You give me "Well so and so said...". Come on...step up to the plate or head back to the locker room and shower off son.
I gave you the factual reason for current high corn prices, adverse weather the past few growing seasons resulting in national corn yields well below the trend-line. In 2012 the actual national yield was 123 bu, the trendline yield would have been 40 bushels above that. Now that is a fact and you give me CBO projection. Come on son.
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stevie88 screwed with this post 06-28-2013 at 06:23 AM
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Old 06-28-2013, 07:06 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by ZLTFUL View Post
I have several corn producing family members that would be happy to debate this with you. (My family has been farming for over 125 years.)
They plant more hybrids that go into ethanol production than any feed or seed hybrid because they receive more money for it...in fact, more than 3-4 times as much money for it than pre-Renewable Fuel Standard mandate.

Also, your incorrect about ethanol producers not getting subsidies. Tax credits are most definitely subsidies and every new ethanol plant that goes up in Iowa has a healthy tax credit to go along with it.
Granted, the $6 billion/year subsidies that have been in place since 1979 were finally killed but you forget all about the Renewable Fuel Standard which which has a slowly increasing mandate which *requires* a certain percentage of corn be produced for ethanol production (37% for 2011-2012, higher for 2013-2014).

In fact, as the Congressional Budget Office wrote back in 2010(Source):

"In the future, the scheduled increase in mandated volumes would require biofuels to be produced in amounts that are probably beyond what the market would produce even if the effects of the tax credits were included." [Italics mine.]
In other words, the mandates have grown so large that the tax credits barely made a difference anymore. Demand for ethanol is driven by the mandates, not by the tax credit. When you take away the tax credit, nothing happens: Demand stays high because the law says so, corn prices go up accordingly, and corn farmers stay rich. The subsidies were a nice little fillip on top of that, but at this point it's basically chump change.

So there's your facts, Stevie. I won't get into the *FACT* that ethanol makes mileage suffer. Because several thousand users at www.fuelly.com have proven just that and have the *FACTS* to back it up.

You are wrong, plain and simple. Best to just accept your textual beating like a man and move on.
125 years? Good, but relative newcomers compared to my family. That's really beside the point though.

Most farmers grow corn for the market, not a specific market, just the market in general. They will sell to their local coop, Cargil, ADM, etc or if there's a local user like a feedlot or ethanol plant offering a premium that makes the haul worthwhile, they'll bypass the traditional middleman.

You implied that there are specific corn varieties for ethanol vs the traditional feed corn. Except for speciality corn, it's all the same. Feedlot bound or ethanol bound, it's the same freakin corn. Farmers plant the varieties best suited for their particular soils and micro climate to produce the most bushels per acre possible. It's all fucking #2 yellow corn or as Micheal Pollan and others call it, "industrial corn".

The use of local and state tax breaks to lure business is widespread and isn't confined to any one industry. You could make a better case that we are subsidizing Walmart. You bring that up to muddy the issue because you know I'm correct. Ethanol is economically competitive with petroleum.
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Old 06-28-2013, 07:17 AM   #109
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ahh from the guy that posts a total of 1 or 2 links all done by Ethanol organizations trying to discredit a single post with about 25 links and most done by independent sources siting EXACTLY what you call "talking out of their ass".

it's Physics and the Law of Thermodynamics. It's proven, and you're dreaming and sucking the shit out of someone who IS talking out of their ass and drinking it like Kool-Aid and regurgitating it here as if it's fact.

Good work
If you knew a fraction of what you think you know, you'd have never posted that.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:18 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by stevie88 View Post
You nitwit, it's mandated because petroleum companies control the distribution chain. Ethanol takes a bite out of their market share and their bottom line. You can be sure that most consumers given the choice would buy whatever fuel is cheaper and ethanol blends are cheaper. Ethanol is economically competitive, just fire up your google machine and check out the spot prices for ethanol and gasoline.

I've spent quite a bit of time in Brazil the past 10 years. They offer alcohol blends as well as pure alcohol and most of the cars there are dual fuel ready. Drivers there understand the mpg hit they'll git using 100% alcohol and are smart enough to calculate the cost per mile when making their fuel purchase and make their choice accordingly. Alcohol is generally about 40% cheaper than the blended gasoline.
More utter BS.... You typing it on the internet does not make it a fact....

I can buy non ethanol fuel in my hometown for exactly the same price as the ethanol blends... thankfully PA does NOT have a ethanol mandate so I have a choice... I therefore choose to purchase fuel that gives me better fuel economy at the same price as the blended crap....
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:46 AM   #111
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More utter BS.... You typing it on the internet does not make it a fact....

I can buy non ethanol fuel in my hometown for exactly the same price as the ethanol blends... thankfully PA does NOT have a ethanol mandate so I have a choice... I therefore choose to purchase fuel that gives me better fuel economy at the same price as the blended crap....
Just because the oil company that you're buying fuel from is charging the same price doesn't mean ethanol isn't price competitive.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:32 PM   #112
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:27 PM   #113
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Pioneer alone produces over 300 different corn hybrids. And I have been friends for years with their lead corn lab geneticist. He listed off ~70 hybrids that were developed specifically for use in ethanol production (over 40% more sugars than varieties used in the production of corn sweeteners). So, yes, there was nothing alluded to as it is fact.
They are known as "producer preffered" hybrids.
And that isn't even considering all of the other seed companies.

And to provide a wonderfully accurate quote from Navy there,
Quote:
You typing it on the internet does not make it a fact....
A CBO projection based on market trends and not using the politics you seem so deeply entrenched in is a vastly more accurate quantifier than you just saying it is so.

Ever notice that outside of states where ethanol is produced locally, the prices rapidly increase above non-ethanol fuel prices? And the margin gets larger and larger the farther you get from states with active ethanol infrastructure. And you say that it is economically better than pure petroleum based fuels?

There is a very good reason why there is disparity in pricing...it COSTS more to move this product. There is no national ethanol pipeline infrastructure. States that aren't historical producers don't want to invest in the infrastructure to produce ethanol locally because then you double your transport costs, inbound and outbound.

In the grand world of debate, the burden of proof typically falls on the person making the assertion that the original topic is false. So far, you have produced nothing more than because you say so arguments. Until you can actually back up your claims with cold hard facts from someone OTHER than the Ethanol industry, you are just killing your own argument and wasting my time. So good day to you, sir.
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Old 06-28-2013, 03:26 PM   #114
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:30 AM   #115
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God, it's painful to see people who think they are in the right and are actually grossly under- and misinformed.
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:55 AM   #116
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Old 06-30-2013, 06:22 AM   #117
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My 2 cents..............

At this point......the Iowa corn farmer is making a better argument than the dadjim cotton picker.................just sayin........
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Old 06-30-2013, 06:48 AM   #118
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I can buy non ethanol fuel in my hometown for exactly the same price as the ethanol blends.
Must be nice, very few stations here sell non-e (two, exactly). It's more expensive, in fact one station sells non-e in Supreme only with a $.20/gallon surcharge over eSupreme.

Has everybody missed Al Gore's "Ethanol Epiphany"? After several years of being it's biggest proponent, he realized he was wrong and had an article published in the WSJ, saying he was wrong the whole time, it's economically inefficient, bad for the environment, and so on. Any browser search will come up with it. I've got it saved on my desktop somewhere.
After publishing that, you'd think he'd devote some time to undoing it, but no.... He's off to foist carbon credits on whoever he can.


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Old 06-30-2013, 07:01 AM   #119
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E85 is selling for $2.85 in Dallas, E10 is $3.50.
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:07 AM   #120
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Interesting reading: http://wiki.dickinson.edu/index.php/...sis_of_Ethanol


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