ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Hacks
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-03-2013, 12:47 PM   #136
dholaday
Gnarly Adventurer
 
dholaday's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: White Salmon, WA
Oddometer: 338
Claude:

Re Simplicity +1

FYI, I downloaded Kendall's manuals from USCA. Again, thanks for the info and links.

Duncan
__________________
It is better to have ridden and crashed, than to have never ridden at all.
dholaday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2013, 05:56 PM   #137
Midnullarbor
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2010
Oddometer: 316
.
DirtyDR makes a good point, that it is easy for a thread to get tangled up in argument/ discussion about the meaning of words.

Some words are sharply defined and everyone understands them clearly . . . but other phrases can often be ambiguous or fuzzy with shades of right & wrong & basic misunderstandings, to boot.
"Flying the chair" is so well entrenched in everyday sidecar discussion, that I suspect it can't be cut out of the language (and replaced by lofting, lifting, raising, or whatever).

We'll just have to lump along with it, and perhaps best skirt around that word when discussing the "extremes" of outfit handling.



That said, there is still no getting away from the need to understand the practical realities of outfit handling.
Sidecar outfit driving is way less intuitive than ordinary four-wheeler driving or motorbike riding.

Claude's and Dr Hal's idea of the "triangle of stability" is super-important to grasp well . . . because for best practical performance we need to learn and think about the fundamentals of handling, in the same way that a pilot [ought to] learn the dynamic fundamentals of plane flying before he zooms off into the wide blue yonder.
Once he fully understands the basics, then he can really get the most benefit from the practising.

The alternative ~ gaining competence by just seat-of-the-pants flying . . . is a risky business.



Sorry not to be injecting a few humorous comments [or spectacular pics ~ thanks HogWild @ post #113 ] into what is essentially a "safe & competent driving" discussion, triggered by Haggis the OP.
.
Midnullarbor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 09:27 AM   #138
claude
Sidecar Jockey
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
Oddometer: 3,408
I have been very happy to see the sincerity throughout this thread with no argumentative type of discussion thrown it. We are , I feel, all seeking a common goal and that would be to learn our specific outfit's capabilities along with our own basic skills and enhance those to whatever level will provide the safest and most rewarding sidecar experience possible.
Hope this keeps going. I , for what it is worth, would like to encourage anyone to step in with their own concerns or views on sidecar operation. We can try to address the 'what if's' in a positive way that all can benefit from.
Even when possible different views surface that is fine as they will give food for thought to those who are seeking a better understanding of things in an attempt to raise the bar as far as sidecar skills and enjoyment goes.
So, thanks to all who have posted. Lets keep it going. There is much more to discuss if we want to delve into it.We are all learning.
__________________
Claude

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub at SCT
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

President: C Stanley Motorsports Inc.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...rsandTrailers/

http://freedomsidecars.com/

claude screwed with this post 08-06-2013 at 06:39 AM
claude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 07:36 AM   #139
Midnullarbor
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2010
Oddometer: 316
.
Two wheels versus three wheels?


My post #137 (as above) was largely general waffle/ Motherhood statement, being in the category of "True . . . but so what?'.

To now be specific, I would like to improve my education on a particular point :-

One question still unanswered here , is whether using a clearly-up-in-the-air flying-the-chair technique can truly be a method of recovery from the bad situation of too-hot cornering.

Several contributors have mentioned that course as a possibility, in a sort of indirect reference that implies or hints that it might be so . . . or that it might at least be something to consider if all else fails.

Is this idea an Urban Myth . . . or are there definite cases where deliberately tilting the outfit up and going from 3 to 2 wheels will save the bacon?



[ I grasp the point that when the sidecar wheel has just lifted-off slightly and the outfit is riding on two wheels, then you have reached maximum/tightest cornering. My question relates to the case of deliberately "tilting up" and balancing the outfit along the tipover line, which of course is what we can normally do in a relaxed practising of "flying", but which we would not *usually* aim to do at higher speeds. ]
.
Midnullarbor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 08:46 AM   #140
DirtyDR
Dana
 
DirtyDR's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2003
Location: Edwards,Colorado
Oddometer: 2,215
My answer would be no but what do I know?

I do not believe that once you are in a situation where you are in danger of losing it you are going to have time to assess the otions much less pull the chair up in a controlled manner to the balance point. If you are in the middle of a corner too hot you are already out of control and all that is going to happen is going to be reflex and whatever you have practiced is what is going to happen. I personally do not believe trying to bring the chair up is going to do anything except maybe flip you. The roads up here are very unforgiving with either extreme drops or cliff faces and there is often an RV or a horse trailer coming around the corner at you so I would always suggest prudence unless you really know the road and are just playing or practicing your skills.

You asked specifically about recovery and I believe that once you are out of control on a sidecar rig it is too late to worry about recovery and you should be thinking more about just surviving.
__________________
06 Ural Patrol
03 R1150 GS Sport/ Friendship II
94 R1100RS
99 Rokon Ranger
71 Rokon RT140

Hack'n the TLH
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=592860

http://dirtydr.smugmug.com/

Proud Member of the Patrol Patrol
DirtyDR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 10:38 AM   #141
HogWild
Scott Whitney
 
HogWild's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: SoCal USA
Oddometer: 2,528
Bringing the hack higher won't allow you to hold a tighter turn. It WILL allow you to momentarily turn slightly tighter. So, if the end result without lifting the chair, or lifting it only slightly, is that you will just barely hit (side-swipe) something on the other side of the road, then lifting higher might buy a foot or two in your favor. But if you are so far over the appropriate speed that you will essentially “head-on” with another car or the guard rail, where a foot or two more towards the inside of the curve won’t save you, then lifting the chair higher will just allow you to impact in a slightly different place.
__________________
.
New desert racing frontiers
It will be Diabolical!
HogWild is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 12:48 PM   #142
Tarka
Doesn't wave back.
 
Tarka's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Across the pond.
Oddometer: 1,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
.
One question still unanswered here , is whether using a clearly-up-in-the-air flying-the-chair technique can truly be a method of recovery from the bad situation of too-hot cornering.
My question relates to the case of deliberately "tilting up" and balancing the outfit along the tipover line, which of course is what we can normally do in a relaxed practising of "flying", but which we would not *usually* aim to do at higher speeds. ]
.
I think it's more a case of if you're capable and confident of lifting the chair or flying the chair on demand,in any direction (towards the chair,away from the chair,doing figure eights,etc etc) then you're not so likely to commit the classic and common errors which WILL result in injury or death.

Namely,the painful or fatal errors of target fixation and likely false belief that you're not going to make that bend/are going to hit that tree or the awful novice error of shutting the throttle and/or grabbing the front brake just because the chair feels a bit light.

I'm not so sure that deliberately lifting/flying the chair will save you if you've totally overcooked a bend or completely missed the apex.
However,being able to do so did once save me from a dinged sidecar front when I cocked up a bend and I lifted the chair to clear a roadside milestone.
__________________
.

I'd only waste my money if I didn`t spend it on all my bikes......
Tarka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 12:49 PM   #143
davebig
Another Angry Hun !
 
davebig's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Minnesota
Oddometer: 2,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDR View Post
My answer would be no but what do I know?

I do not believe that once you are in a situation where you are in danger of losing it you are going to have time to assess the otions much less pull the chair up in a controlled manner to the balance point. If you are in the middle of a corner too hot you are already out of control and all that is going to happen is going to be reflex and whatever you have practiced is what is going to happen. I personally do not believe trying to bring the chair up is going to do anything except maybe flip you. The roads up here are very unforgiving with either extreme drops or cliff faces and there is often an RV or a horse trailer coming around the corner at you so I would always suggest prudence unless you really know the road and are just playing or practicing your skills.

You asked specifically about recovery and I believe that once you are out of control on a sidecar rig it is too late to worry about recovery and you should be thinking more about just surviving.
I'm the new guy and I tend to agree with Dana and Hog Wild is right, you can't really train for disaster but you can acquaint yourself with what leads up to it so that one is not a total reactionary without a clue as to how this all developed.Its the difference between spirited riding and racing.If you where racing it would be a tactic, cruising its a reaction.
After crashing while riding slightly over my head while out of state at a rally, it all worked out but riding anywhere near ones limit away from home is asking for trouble.DB
__________________
Patience: A minor form of despair disguised as a virture.
Ambrose Bierce
davebig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 08:44 PM   #144
Midnullarbor
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Oct 2010
Oddometer: 316
.
Thanks to DirtyDR, HogWild, Tarka & DaveBig, for your replies.

That is pretty much what I had been thinking. There didn't seem (to me) to be a logical reason why/how an intentional high-flying of the chair could save the bacon on a too-hot corner . . . but there had been elsewhere some hints or half-spoken undercurrents that it was a technique which the advanced drivers could choose to play when coolly-dealing with that sort of emergency.
And I was worried I hadn't grasped a basic operating or safety technique.
So I am glad to have that clarified.


Although I prefer to keep a low profile about myself, I will publicly confess to being a "ballaster". Is that a proper word? ~ my spellchecker fought against it, and offered other choices ranging from Ballasted . . . to Bastard :-(

There, nailed my flag to the mast.
Tarka will be choking on his cornflakes . . . and I am very aware of the many advantages he can list for having an unballasted [ unbastardised ? ] sidecar . . . and yet I believe that they are outweighed [excuse pun] by the much wider operating envelope when turning towards the car. Not to mention sideslopes !


But I am warned [ or will shortly be ! ] that this is not really the thread for re-visiting that controversial topic.

Thanks once again,
Mid
.
Midnullarbor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 12:49 AM   #145
Tarka
Doesn't wave back.
 
Tarka's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Across the pond.
Oddometer: 1,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
.
Tarka will be choking on his cornflakes . . . .
I am actually !

Reading this while having my brekky.

And I crunched a bit harder at the sight of a certain part of your text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
.
But I am warned [ or will shortly be ! ] that this is not really the thread for re-visiting that controversial topic.
Indeed,old boy....let that dog sleep peacefully.
__________________
.

I'd only waste my money if I didn`t spend it on all my bikes......
Tarka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 06:25 AM   #146
john82q
Adventurer
 
john82q's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Brisvegas
Oddometer: 24
sidcar cornering its a art...

Been following this thread, its a good one.


Quote:
One question still unanswered here , is whether using a clearly-up-in-the-air flying-the-chair technique can truly be a method of recovery from the bad situation of too-hot cornering.
Not a method, more a last ditch effort.
Suppose mid corner towards the chair your hanging off, thottle held just on the power, the front brake is squeezed controlling the speed, and inducing lateral slip of the rear, There is no weight on the sidecar wheel, the fronts at its grip limit any more brake and it will understeer.(indeed it already is slightly)

yet your going to cross the line. (it really is a mistake to be here)
turning the bars you tighten your curve, but as you do so the chair starts to rotate up, you keep at it and it goes up and even over the balance point. (disaster is imminent) BUT in the time it took to rotate (fraction of secound) youve now pointed the bike in tighter than you needed,(inside the apex) turning the bars the other way an it rotates down, your too tight curve widens and is now on target for apex.

A arse full save. I did it once, not recommending it...



Ballast is dead weight, a waste of fuel.
A passenger however is a handy way to balance the rig.
A passenger(even a furry one) is a dynamic load, even a non participating passenger will brace them selves agaist the G force by moving to the inside. I can go faster though curves with a passenger than I can with ballast or unloaded. (however unloaded I can accelerate out better so it averages out.

I have been riding my sidecar since 2009, done about 30,000k on it. (so I am a compartive noob ok) The bike is a Suzi GS1100 with a DJP. Most of those Ks have been in the twisty roads around Brisbane, Australia. I like to ride it to edge of my and the bikes limits, and look to strech those, its a constant learning. Most of what I have learned is self-taught from experience with my sidecar, and the writings of Mr Hal Kendall..

I see th OP was in Brisbane if he or anyone else wants to get in touch to compare notes and have ride that would be cool...never see other sidecars...
john82q is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 07:01 AM   #147
Crilly
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Oddometer: 711
There is two ways to steer a two wheel motor cycle. Going slow you turn the handle bars (like on a trike) and balance the bike. (The bike stays up right) Going fast you counter steer and balance the bike. ( leaned over). Yes I know you can shift weight to balance and turn a bike, but you are just moving the bars a little.

(Right side hack)

When turning a rig to the right, it is like turning a two wheeler slow. Turn the bars to the right, balance the rig, turn more right, balance the rig. Repeat as neccery to get around the turn. (This is how you make a tight u turn on two wheels ) This keeps the sidecar down.

Accelerating thru right hand turns and deacelerating through left hand turns makes steering a lot easier.

Flying a side car and making a right hand turn are two different things.
Crilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 07:38 AM   #148
claude
Sidecar Jockey
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
Oddometer: 3,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
Bringing the hack higher won't allow you to hold a tighter turn. It WILL allow you to momentarily turn slightly tighter. So, if the end result without lifting the chair, or lifting it only slightly, is that you will just barely hit (side-swipe) something on the other side of the road, then lifting higher might buy a foot or two in your favor. But if you are so far over the appropriate speed that you will essentially “head-on” with another car or the guard rail, where a foot or two more towards the inside of the curve won’t save you, then lifting the chair higher will just allow you to impact in a slightly different place.
Well put. A friend a while back went into a turn toward the sidecar dropping the sidecar wheel off the edge of the road slightly. I posted the stOry here with some pictures etc but not sure where it is now. The turn was a tight on an unfamiliar road. Anyhow sidecar wheel hit a rock and sidecar went up very high and very fast. Charlie, a very experienced sidecarist, said he felt he could have saved it but he would have been on the wrong side of the road. His reaction was to turn left and gas it trying to go in front of the oncoming car. He didn't make it but did avoid what would have been a definite head on collision. The car hit the empty sidecar totally the car and the sidecar outfit....but..... Charlie, even with injuries, survived and is back in the saddle today. Yes, he screwed up by being a little too aggressive and dropping his wheel off the road but his reactions after the original error were by far the best option he had.
Actions happen and even though planning them can be good or bad it is the reactions to the moment that can save your butt. This isn't just about sidecar but anything we are driving. Choices made are based on experience which comes from knowing your outfit and are based on your skill level. Some would have not reacted the way charlie did I think the results would have been much worse than they were.
__________________
Claude

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub at SCT
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

President: C Stanley Motorsports Inc.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...rsandTrailers/

http://freedomsidecars.com/
claude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 09:46 AM   #149
Bobmws
Curmudgeon At Large
 
Bobmws's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Same trailer, different park
Oddometer: 1,050
Quote:
Originally Posted by claude View Post
Well put. A friend a while back went into a turn toward the sidecar dropping the sidecar wheel off the edge of the road slightly. I posted the stOry here with some pictures etc but not sure where it is now. The turn was a tight on an unfamiliar road. Anyhow sidecar wheel hit a rock and sidecar went up very high and very fast. Charlie, a very experienced sidecarist, said he felt he could have saved it but he would have been on the wrong side of the road. His reaction was to turn left and gas it trying to go in front of the oncoming car. He didn't make it but did avoid what would have been a definite head on collision. The car hit the empty sidecar totally the car and the sidecar outfit....but..... Charlie, even with injuries, survived and is back in the saddle today. Yes, he screwed up by being a little too aggressive and dropping his wheel off the road but his reactions after the original error were by far the best option he had.
Actions happen and even though planning them can be good or bad it is the reactions to the moment that can save your butt. This isn't just about sidecar but anything we are driving. Choices made are based on experience which comes from knowing your outfit and are based on your skill level. Some would have not reacted the way charlie did I think the results would have been much worse than they were.

I'm stil a noob on my rig, but what I get from this "flying the chair" discussion is that there are times when the chair will come up. Practicing "flying" in a controlled area will allow you to learn how to handle that issue to some extent. The right turn onto my road (low traffic rural neighborhood) is off camber and uphill. With the chair empty it comes up quickly. with the wife on board it stays planted. I'm slowly learning to control the lift and fly the chair down the road, intentionally crossing the centerline and back again. As everyone say, practice, practice, practice.....
__________________
Bob Weis 04 K12RS - Hannigan Hack
Everything happens for a reason, but sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.
Photo's: http://s1077.photobucket.com/albums/w464/Bobmws/
www.earplugco.com
Bobmws is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 10:35 AM   #150
claude
Sidecar Jockey
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
Oddometer: 3,408
You got it Bob...practice. Read the bit I posted written by Hal K carefully. :-)
__________________
Claude

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub at SCT
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

President: C Stanley Motorsports Inc.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...rsandTrailers/

http://freedomsidecars.com/
claude is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 12:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014