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Old 08-10-2013, 02:58 AM   #166
Bobmws
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Originally Posted by davebig View Post
Well I screwed one up this evening big time and I'm not sure how possibly tired in a hurry and going to fast 120 degree rt onto a freeway trying to lift chair with 220 pound buddy and dog. I think the car was up and I panicked and tried to get widder and slow down but too much rear brake and we slid ended up in the grass slid faster across two lanes of traffic luckily there was a hole and I gained control on the left shoulder.I think the whole deal was I'm out of experience panic.I washed bike up as we'd been off roadDBing when I got home and did a few rights in parking lot to check my lift off.
I will return to the scene of the crime tomorrow and fine the error of judgment.
DAMN! Sounds very scary, glad you're OK.
A heat gun will take the pucker out of the seat.....
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Old 08-10-2013, 04:35 AM   #167
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Interesting contrast . . . DaveBig scooting off the road while driving a heavily-loaded sidecar, while the guy [in Millennium's video clip @ #162] gets into trouble with a completely "unloaded" sidecar outfit.
In a way, they represent the same handling problem.

Glad DaveBig survived shaken but unstirred.
Can't have been so good for the video guy.
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Old 08-10-2013, 06:03 AM   #168
claude
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There are limits to every vehicle no matter if it is a sidecar outfit or a corvette.
Pushing those limits is not good on the street.
Pushing the limits can get you in trouble.
Exceeding the limits will get you in trouble.
We need to let safety rule. Safe riding will be defined differently as experience grows.
Overconfidence will not produce good results.
Many if not most of us have been there Dave. Kinda humbling huh? The main thing is that you are okay.
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Old 08-10-2013, 06:39 AM   #169
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Many if not most of us have been there Dave. Kinda humbling huh? The main thing is that you are okay.
Exactly Claude, I don't scare very easy but this did it, will retrace my steps slower and see what happened, heavy outfits slide easy lots of weight changes things allot.DB
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:33 AM   #170
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Exactly Claude, I don't scare very easy but this did it, will retrace my steps slower and see what happened, heavy outfits slide easy lots of weight changes things allot.DB
Sliding within limits can be the better option. Retracing and thinking things out is a good thing. Probably shouldn't say this here but " Cowboy Up". Fear is generated by the unknown. The unknown may be able to be controlled or maybe not as time passes. You came out okay in spite of things and if you find where you think you goofed that is good. I do have a feeling that you just got in over your head and that of the outfit you were on. As stated before there are limits. When they are exceeded we are between the grace of God and what got us there to begin with. "Throttle on till u see the pearly gates and then back off ' is not a good motto for on the street. Finesse typically wins out over aggressiveness.
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claude screwed with this post 08-10-2013 at 09:48 AM
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Old 08-10-2013, 05:37 PM   #171
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Error of my ways !

Claude Never say cowboy up to me !!!! The only person here with more testosterone poisining than me is Duncan LOL I have shitty impulse control and often don't reflect on the consequences of my behavior enough.

My nice skid mark out onto a 4 lane hwy I had noticed there was no traffic as I arrived.
I think the error was with a 100 pounds more in the chair than I usually ride with I had allot more rotation when decelerating, I let up trying to get a better grip on the throttle she rotated left I panicked and braked too had and we were off to the races.Foolish move and I was almost through the turn.I will do better.

Hog Wild has been helpful and confirmed a couple things I thought, lowering weight helps I found this out deciding that hopping side to side is allot of work but just placing my head over the hand of the direction I'm turning, lowers my central mass and seems to help and is a nice compromise between hanging off and modulating throttle trying to get the rig rotation to do most of the work.
Sidecaring seems to have allot of intricacies all based on experience surviving and being patient will get the experience.DB
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:01 PM   #172
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Davebig, I am not quite clear on your description of what happened in the first instance.

"I think the chair was up".
Correct me if I am reconstructing it wrongly :-

1. Fast cornering and unintended lifting of a heavy chair & passengers

2. You put the chair down by widening the cornering line

3. At much the same time you braked & skidded the bike's rear wheel

4. The rear braking combined with the heavy [and un-braked] sidecar to produce a ploughing straight forwards effect. (Well, almost straight.)
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:22 PM   #173
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I know from experience that some on-ramps can be quite tricky, with a final decreasing radius at the exact same time I am looking back to the left checking for oncoming traffic.
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:31 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
.
Davebig, I am not quite clear on your description of what happened in the first instance.

"I think the chair was up".
Correct me if I am reconstructing it wrongly :-

1. Fast cornering and unintended lifting of a heavy chair & passengers

2. You put the chair down by widening the cornering line

3. At much the same time you braked & skidded the bike's rear wheel

4. The rear braking combined with the heavy [and un-braked] sidecar to produce a ploughing straight forwards effect. (Well, almost straight.)
.
After rethinking it and flying the chair intentionally,to get a better feel for its lift of point.
I think I was light but chair was not up

I was too fast and closed the throttle

Sidecar rotated to the left I locked up rear brake and proceeded left.

Ran out of experience used brake, more consistent throttle use would have been better and setup more right rotation.
Mistakes lots,tired, hurrying, almost home Fri night etc etc etc.DB
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Old 08-10-2013, 11:49 PM   #175
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Davebig, thanks.
Got my head much clearer about the course of events.

On balance of probabilities, I reckon I'm more likely to commit the first scenario I listed.


A lapse, a misjudgment . . . all too easily done.
There's no getting away from the fact that a sidecar outfit has a VERY narrow "operating envelope" compared with the standard four-wheeler. And the envelope is asymmetric, into the bargain!
Even the most experienced outfit driver will, from time to time, have a "moment". If not worse.
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:13 AM   #176
Tarka
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I was too fast and closed the throttle
The classic killer or maimer on a sidecar sided lifting/going light panic situation.
How many more times does it have to be posted to NOT shut the throttle in this situation?
Rolling off a tad maybe....but not shutting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davebig View Post
Sidecar rotated to the left I locked up rear brake and proceeded left.
Again,how many more times does the danger of braking in this situation have to be mentioned?


Quote:
Originally Posted by davebig View Post
possibly tired in a hurry and going to fast 120 degree rt onto a freeway trying to lift chair with 220 pound buddy and dog.

I'm glad you're ok but you picked just about the most stupid location and time that I can imagine for practicing chair lifting.
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Old 08-11-2013, 06:27 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Tarka View Post
The classic killer or maimer on a sidecar sided lifting/going light panic situation.
How many more times does it have to be posted to NOT shut the throttle in this situation?
Rolling off a tad maybe....but not shutting it.



Again,how many more times does the danger of braking in this situation have to be mentioned?


I'm glad you're ok but you picked just about the most stupid location and time that I can imagine for practicing chair lifting.

Tarka your the voice of reason today after revisiting the scene more throttle would have been the right thing to do, it was a decreasing radius but not off camber a slightly slower entry and more gas would have been perfect.DB

A little public himiliation here is good for the ego(they need a little cane now and then) having a semi serious rig is a reflection of my credit rating not my knowledge base. The trick is to live long enough to gain experience. How about a little Shakespeare ?


A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.

William Shakespeare
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davebig screwed with this post 08-11-2013 at 06:38 AM
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:36 AM   #178
claude
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Originally Posted by davebig View Post
After rethinking it and flying the chair intentionally,to get a better feel for its lift of point.
I think I was light but chair was not up

I was too fast and closed the throttle

Sidecar rotated to the left I locked up rear brake and proceeded left.

Ran out of experience used brake, more consistent throttle use would have been better and setup more right rotation.
Mistakes lots,tired, hurrying, almost home Fri night etc etc etc.DB
DAVID GOTTA HAND IT TO YOU. I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAID ABOVE AFTER YOU 'RETHOUGHT' THINGS.
Once we run out of experience we are at the mercy of what got us into the situation. Again, main thing is there was no damage was done. It could have been worse.
Someone once said: The school of experience is a great institution but the tuition can be high.
Your blooper was an excellent example related to much of what has been discussed in this thread. If those reading this will go back and re-read all up to this point I think the message will hit home pretty good.
Did you do that maneuver just to make a point? Seriously?
Give me a call when you can.
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Old 08-12-2013, 02:27 AM   #179
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A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.

William Shakespeare
Wise indeed.

I reckon you've now reached that special point in learning to ride a combo.
A very special point.
It's the point where confidence exceeds ability.

If you're lucky...and you were...that is the point when you really start learning how to ride a combo.

There's a few I know of who didn't survive the incident that showed that they were at this point.

And that's why I bang on so much about folk needing real training by real people and being taught the feelings of and the proper safe reactions to the lifting point of 'going light' and the balance point when properly flying the chair.
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:08 AM   #180
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Wise indeed.

I reckon you've now reached that special point in learning to ride a combo.
A very special point.
It's the point where confidence exceeds ability.

And that's why I bang on so much about folk needing real training by real people and being taught the feelings of and the proper safe reactions to the lifting point of 'going light' and the balance point when properly flying the chair.
I could not agree more, and it is mostly about mastering the panic and not reacting when the chair gets light.I worked on that a bit more yesterday.DB
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