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Old 07-22-2013, 08:14 AM   #91
Tarka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude View Post
lol....Misquoted me a little Tarka? .


Just a little devilment with your words.



BTW,what's going on with your quoting method?
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:11 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarka View Post


Just a little devilment with your words.



BTW,what's going on with your quoting method?
Yeah you got me ...lol.
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Old 07-22-2013, 06:28 PM   #93
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Claude, I am enjoying having both very much but truth be told, I like the rigid the most, because it is such a different set of skills.

The other odd part of my rigid is it being a Convert I can ride the car and still accelerate, steer and brake with only left hand.
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:24 AM   #94
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Yes celatus leaners and rigid outfits are totally different worlds. I have only ridden a few leaners and have thought about building one but have not done so yet. Guess all this should be another thread though.
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Old 07-25-2013, 08:29 AM   #95
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What a great discussion - Claude, good to hear you again (I am not on boards much) as I think it's been since the '09 or '10 Ron-Dee-Voo that we met. Hope all is well!

I really appreciate the discussion about sidecar handling dynamics. Not for lack of trying, I was never able to take a sidecar class, and while I think it's fair to say I'm a proficient hack rider, there's always more to learn about these things.

I did find great joy in combining a throttle lock, a lowered hack windshield, and the use of the handle on the tub to do do high speed (~75 mph) right hand sweepers on a trip many years back. The weight on the tub balanced the triangle out nicely, and while I wouldn't want anything unexpected to come my way mid-turn, it was a damn fun way to ride a hack.

Peace,
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Old 07-25-2013, 09:04 AM   #96
RidingDonkeys
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Just joining in here. Some great input thus far. I'm glad to see this thread going.
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:04 AM   #97
claude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrolPeter View Post
What a great discussion - Claude, good to hear you again (I am not on boards much) as I think it's been since the '09 or '10 Ron-Dee-Voo that we met. Hope all is well!

I really appreciate the discussion about sidecar handling dynamics. Not for lack of trying, I was never able to take a sidecar class, and while I think it's fair to say I'm a proficient hack rider, there's always more to learn about these things.

I did find great joy in combining a throttle lock, a lowered hack windshield, and the use of the handle on the tub to do do high speed (~75 mph) right hand sweepers on a trip many years back. The weight on the tub balanced the triangle out nicely, and while I wouldn't want anything unexpected to come my way mid-turn, it was a damn fun way to ride a hack.

Peace,
Peter
Hello Peter. Good to see you post. Hope you post more often.
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:18 AM   #98
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.
Also joining in late.
Reviewing the whole thread to date, shows that the initial question by Haggis (the OP) has not been completely addressed by subsequent comments/posts.

To summarize : A tightening corner (turning towards the chair) meant that in effect he was going in too fast for that particular corner.
What best to do in this situation, when it is too late for much braking, and too late for leaping into a hanging-off position? (As Claude has said, the "leaping" would at first only upset things more.)

Post #39 Claude's diagram of the "triangle of stability" shows turning away from the chair. Then imagine it showing an outfit turning towards the chair.
All outfits (moving straight down the road) have the effective C.o.Gravity supported within the triangle, but in almost all outfits the support point is unhappily close to the Tipover Line connecting the front wheel and the pusher wheel [unless the rig has a very hefty and well-placed ballast].

Turning towards the chair too fast for the corner, results in the "support point" moving sideways past the Tipover Line . . . resulting in well, tip over.
Nothing new about that basic idea.

However, the discussion point hasn't been made that, as the sidecar lifts a bit, then the C.o.Gravity is being raised and also moved sideways by the tilting [only a small sideways amount, fortunately].
Both those shifts are in the wrong [unhelpful] direction ~ or in other words, flying the chair does actually reduce the maximum possible cornering speed for that particular cornering line.

Conscious of his actions or not, the outfit driver must respond by trying to straighten the cornering line a bit (i.e. "correcting" without overcorrecting) or by washing off a little speed (which ALSO results in some veering outwards).
Neither action is highly desirable when that painted line is close by.

Is there a third way of dealing with the "oh no" problem that Haggis describes?
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:43 AM   #99
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Any takers on the above post? Vernon?? Dave K.? Start it off guys there is room for more discussion here ..,don't ya think ?
I agree that turning away from the turn is a stabilizing factor but must be done with ultimate finesses. A quick turn ,which is the 'normal' reaction for those lacing experience can and more than likely will be a disaster.
If we were to look back at all the responses in this thread a little I think the common ground is that any sidecar jockey on any given outfit needs to practice. No given outfit is exactly the same as the next one even thought he basic cornering dynamics will be similar. There are limits!! Same with any vehicle whether it be a school bus or a Formula I car. Weight transfers away from the direction we are turning when we corner. Inside of vehicle unloads and outside loads. This weight transfer arcs around a roll center. Roll centers of most sidecar outfits are fixed at ground level. A low roll center means more body roll and visa versa. A high CoG magnifies body roll. Static weight placement does factor in of course such as described by the tip over lines. Inside weight has farther to travel when cornering forces work on it than outside weight. So...there are limits as to what can be done to 'save' any vehicle that is in over it's head.
My main point is that many operators may not react the same under the same conditions. Good reactions come from practice. Good reactions will make the best out of a bad situation even though there are limits. When one gets 'spooked' another may just drive on through with no issues. Why? Practice and experience.
The question was posed:
Yes there is a third way but it may or may not work with a given machine. The term drifting has been abused many times. True drifting is when the rear of the bike has actually broken traction and is sliding to a certain degree. This can be a stabilizing factor related to the chair in the air concern. This isn't something that should be taken lightly I suppose and probably should not be promoted here. However, just shy of this technique is what some call drifting today. This is a good technique and is safe. The idea of working the front brake while under throttle will increase the slip angle of the rear tire and does help as far as stability goes. It does help to keep the sidecar down in a turn toward the sidecar. (ttsc). When to relaease th ebrake and how much throttle to use can come with experience related directly to the machine you are on and your present familiarization with that given machine and your personal skill level .
Are we climbing too far out of the box here? Comments??
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claude screwed with this post 07-29-2013 at 07:56 AM
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:41 AM   #100
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I thought we covered lifting the chair a few times already and the OPs question was
"I would appreciate advice on the following

at no time did I think that tightening my line and flying the chair was an option . was it an option for me"

and my answer would be yes. Intentionally trying to fly the chair to get you out of a deteriorating situation is probably not going to work since you are most likely just trying to survive at this point but doing everything you can to keep the chair down is not neccesarily a good thing either. You need to know when the chair is going to come up on your particular rig and the only way to know that is practice. The only way to practice is ride to your limits and slowly push them until you know what is going to happen when you get a little too hot. There is a very fine line between pushing your limits and exceeding them and crossing that line happens very abruptly and most often with less than desirable consequences.

Not every technique will work with every sidecar rig and the only way to know what your's will tolerate is to practice, practice, practice.
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:50 AM   #101
claude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDR View Post
I thought we covered lifting the chair a few times already and the OPs question was
"I would appreciate advice on the following

at no time did I think that tightening my line and flying the chair was an option . was it an option for me"

and my answer would be yes. Intentionally trying to fly the chair to get you out of a deteriorating situation is probably not going to work since you are most likely just trying to survive at this point but doing everything you can to keep the chair down is not neccesarily a good thing either. You need to know when the chair is going to come up on your particular rig and the only way to know that is practice. The only way to practice is ride to your limits and slowly push them until you know what is going to happen when you get a little too hot. There is a very fine line between pushing your limits and exceeding them and crossing that line happens very abruptly and most often with less than desirable consequences.

Not every technique will work with every sidecar rig and the only way to know what your's will tolerate is to practice, practice, practice.
Very good response in my opinion Dana. All good points. There is much we can say with printed words and there can be some varying views due to given experiences by who ever the poster may be. ALL of us have room for improvement in our skills and all of us are at different levels on outfits that may respond slightly different in a given situation. Yes, the basics are the same but what we can do within the constraints of the rig we are on will vary somewhat.
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:19 PM   #102
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The OPs second question about braking is a slippery one also. I brake a lot in corners on 2 and 3 wheels but I tend to lay off of the front brake as much as possible once the turn starts and it doesn't matter if the turn is towards the chair or away from it. The suspension on my rig is soft enough that I can hit the front brake going straight down the road and slowly increase the pressure until the rear pusher wheel starts to lift, I do not want to practice this in a corner. My GS does not have ABS so I feel I have a lot more flexibility with the brakes when I hit a corner, even so braking in a corner should be done carefully. I run my R1100RS solo a whole lot harder than I do my GS but I think most of the principles still apply to both in that you do not want that front end loaded up when you hit the corner. Light front brake to scrub speed in a corner is fine as long as you use the rear also to keep the front end from loading up but there again once things have started to go wrong there is not a lot you can do and you should never do anything abruptly, braking or turning or things will get worse in a hurry. Personally I prefer to err on the side of caution and start into a turn a little easier and wick it up once I am in and have things under control. It is much easier to add more than try to fix it once it has gone bad.

This is of course how my life works, YMMV and probably will. Remember bottom line is practice, practice, practice.
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:22 PM   #103
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The OPs second question about braking is a slippery one also. I brake a lot in corners on 2 and 3 wheels but I tend to lay off of the front brake as much as possible once the turn starts and it doesn't matter if the turn is towards the chair or away from it. The suspension on my rig is soft enough that I can hit the front brake going straight down the road and slowly increase the pressure until the rear pusher wheel starts to lift, I do not want to practice this in a corner. My GS does not have ABS so I feel I have a lot more flexibility with the brakes when I hit a corner, even so braking in a corner should be done carefully. I run my R1100RS solo a whole lot harder than I do my GS but I think most of the principles still apply to both in that you do not want that front end loaded up when you hit the corner. Light front brake to scrub speed in a corner is fine as long as you use the rear also to keep the front end from loading up but there again once things have started to go wrong there is not a lot you can do and you should never do anything abruptly, braking or turning or things will get worse in a hurry. Personally I prefer to err on the side of caution and start into a turn a little easier and wick it up once I am in and have things under control. It is much easier to add more than try to fix it once it has gone bad.

This is of course how my life works, YMMV and probably will. Remember bottom line is practice, practice, practice.
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:49 PM   #104
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2 wheels again?

When the sidecar comes up, aren't we back to riding on 2 wheels again? I practice counter-steering with my sidecar up in parking lots to get a feel for counter-steering necessary to get the sidecar wheel back down quickly. Fortunately, not yet used it in a hot situation.
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:02 PM   #105
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When the sidecar comes up, aren't we back to riding on 2 wheels again?
Yes, with a very heavy pannier on one side!
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