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Old 07-29-2013, 09:30 PM   #106
Midnullarbor
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Returning to the OP's comment about the too-hot-corner :
"At no time did I think that tightening my line and flying the chair was an option for me."

He is quite right in making that statement (regardless of high or low skill level).

As I indicated in post #98, to fly the chair can only widen the cornering line he takes [though not as wide as a panicky overcorrection will produce].

I'm only mentioning this, because there seems to be a not uncommon idea that a masterful flying of the chair provides a solution to the problem of the "too-hot-corner" where there is the great danger of ending up on the wrong side of the road. Not so. An outfit on two wheels with the chair "flying high" cannot corner as tightly as an outfit where the sidecar wheel is down (skimming, unweighted) on the road. Sure, there is a negligible difference, if the sidecar wheel is up only a couple of inches . . . but otherwise, the higher the sidecar flies the less tight the cornering can be.

Reading between the lines of Claude's instructions, and to paraphrase ~
it is important to develop skill & confidence in flying the chair. "Flying ability" has a couple of points going for it ~ (a) it's a good party trick, and (b) far more importantly, a confident driver with good skills will be able to "catch" a lifting chair and "with finesse" smoothly get that wheel back down again without a panicky upsetting of the apple cart.

The too-hot-corner is still a problem, though.
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:56 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
Yes, with a very heavy pannier on one side!
Yep, trying to bring some "levity" to the thread.
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Old 07-30-2013, 07:17 AM   #108
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Midnullarbor,
You can tighten your line until the chair starts to come up and it will decrease your cornering radius. Like you said 2 inches off of the deck is flying the chair and as soon as you feel it lift you are at your max, any higher and it will adversly affect your balance point. Flying the chair will not save you but if the chair wheel is not at the lifting point you still have farther to go until it is. If you go in fast enough there is a point at which nothing is going to save you.

The problem I have with my GS rig is that I am not certain at what point it is in the air since I have so much suspension compression. I know when it is getting light but I can not tell the exact moment it comes up or even if it is off of the ground so I tend to have it come up a lot more often in the twisties and since most every road up here is twisty it is in the air a lot. The Ural on the other hand I know when it is up. Every rig is different, that is one of the great things about sidecars even two identical rigs will have their own unique characteristics and these can only be learned by practice and carefully pushing it and yourself to find those limits.

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Old 07-30-2013, 09:55 AM   #109
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Dana
I never really expected to learn much from a Machinists Mate, thank dog you where in A gang, had you been a BT this would be humiliating !
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:24 AM   #110
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Mid ship mite, Bosun tight and crew of the captain's gig, aye aye Sir.
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:10 PM   #111
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Thanks, DirtyDR.
All good points you have made.

As you say, when the sidecar wheel is just starting to lift, then it is the ultimate sign that you've pushed to the very edge of the "envelope".
There is nothing remaining, and the cornering line can't be tightened (except by slowing). Flying the chair higher will only worsen things.

For a turn towards the sidecar, some have mentioned that on a loose/slippery surface, a skilful driver can use more power and get the rear to drift out sideways a bit . . . which in theory would reduce the Tipover risk at that particular speed and cornering line.
But when you look at it closely, the margin of benefit against tipover is extremely small ~ unless the rig is "way sideways", in which case having the bike's rear wheel strike a bump or pot-hole could easily produce a sudden "flip" anyway.



And sorry not to be bringing more levity to the thread!
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:35 PM   #112
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Claudes drills

Ok Claude and Dana went to a parking lot and turned toward the chair till it came up fairly managable , its a heavy rig and responded to rear brake easly returning to the ground and it seemed to be reasonably easy to just hold it up and go straight but that will take more practice and room but I have a spot in mind.Whats next ?
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:01 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
For a turn towards the sidecar, some have mentioned that on a loose/slippery surface, a skilful driver can use more power and get the rear to drift out sideways a bit . . . which in theory would reduce the Tipover risk at that particular speed and cornering line.
But when you look at it closely, the margin of benefit against tipover is extremely small ~ unless the rig is "way sideways", in which case having the bike's rear wheel strike a bump or pot-hole could easily produce a sudden "flip" anyway.
Skilled sidecar-crossers do it all day long with great success. The line isn't as fine when you have a lot of experience, and you're on dirt. A skilled passenger can help a LOT too, by giving a well timed jerk on the grab bar to break the rear wheel loose. Sometimes MORE throttle when you go it too hot is the best solution, though not if you haven't done it 100 times before.

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Old 07-31-2013, 02:35 AM   #114
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Nice pic, HogWild.
A Number One steersman there, clearly!

This could be the Third Way that Haggis (the OP) is seeking for his too-hot into-the-corner problem . . . to acquire Extreem Skillz plus an agile monkey.

Though the outfit above has one unfair advantage ~ no SUV's coming the other way!
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:34 AM   #115
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I had mentioned this technique earlier in turns toward the sidecar but feel that some clarification is in order. It is an advanced technique and is reserved for powerful machines and/ or loose surfaces. It will get you a ticket if seen and it can also get you in trouble is not pulled off successfully. This is true drifting and should really not be something to use from your bag of tricks on the street. Some rigs will do it better than others but in any case it really isn't something to play around with. If the rear does hook up problems can arise very quickly.
One thing we all must take into account here is that various outfits will do things that other will not. Being as we speak so much of the adventure bike based outfits here it is imperative to realize that they are by nature much more 'tippy' than a low slung street going outfit.
Get to know YOUR rig and practice as discussed previously. Take a course if you can as that never hurts. Take time to practice it is the key to safe operation and an enjoyable ride. All vehicles have limits we need to stay within. All drivers have limits that can be expanded with practice. Where these two meet is about as far as anyone can go at that given time.
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Old 07-31-2013, 08:57 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by davebig View Post
Whats next ?
Flying the chair in a circle away from the chair.

Lifting the chair while riding in a straight line.

Flying the chair through figure eights.

Then do it all with a sidecar passenger.....that's a real workout for you.
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Old 07-31-2013, 09:03 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Tarka View Post
Flying the chair in a circle away from the chair.

Lifting the chair while riding in a straight line.

Flying the chair through figure eights.

Then do it all with a sidecar passenger.....that's a real workout for you.
Then stop with the sidecar still in the air and start off again. Why? No real reason but kinda cool.
I still feel that if we could separate the terms ' flying the chair' from just having the sidecar wheel come off the ground slightly in turns toward the sidecar we could possibly curtail some confusion.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:11 AM   #118
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Then stop with the sidecar still in the air and start off again. Why? No real reason but kinda cool. .
Aye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claude View Post
I still feel that if we could separate the terms ' flying the chair' from just having the sidecar wheel come off the ground slightly in turns toward the sidecar we could possibly curtail some confusion.
Yep.
Reckon you nailed it with flying meaning riding with chair at highest balance point....pre tipover
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:13 AM   #119
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Somewhere there is a really good picture of Madeouttaglass on the Dragon with his chair slightly in the air in a hard right curve. It makes for a good illustration.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:25 AM   #120
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Here is a good photo off Killboy. I wouldn't consider this "flying" the chair. This is more in line with negotiating a hard right while the chair wheel just lifts a bit.

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