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Old 07-31-2013, 02:27 PM   #121
claude
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trying to beat the rain I guess
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:59 PM   #122
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Just to be disputatious ~ I would say that Donkeys's Killboy.com pic is a definite example of flying the chair in a corner. Way higher than is "good" for best performance.

If the car wheel were 8 inches lower, then the rig would be able to pull a somewhat tighter turn.

However, the driver clearly has plenty of leeway available on cornering line . . . so much so that even Miss Virginia might suspect a bit of unnecessary "flying" for the camera's sake.
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Old 08-01-2013, 04:53 AM   #123
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Dirty Dr's pic of him in the grass is definitely flying the chair so to speak. The Killboy pic could be either or. Hog Wild's pic of the sidecarcross outfit is not. IF we wish to separate them.
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claude screwed with this post 08-01-2013 at 05:48 AM
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Old 08-01-2013, 06:55 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude View Post
Dirty Dr's pic of him in the grass is definitely flying the chair so to speak. The Killboy pic could be either or. Hog Wild's pic of the sidecarcross outfit is not. IF we wish to separate them.
Hey, I was practicing my mad vintage motocross skills. I practice a lot.







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Old 08-01-2013, 07:38 AM   #125
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Just a lopsided solo bike Dana ..it does enhance tire wear on the sidecar though...lol
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Old 08-01-2013, 07:43 AM   #126
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I had a good friend ask me once why I bothered putting a sidecar on the bike since it is never on the ground anyway.
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Old 08-01-2013, 03:12 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDR View Post
I had a good friend ask me once why I bothered putting a sidecar on the bike since it is never on the ground anyway.
And your answer was??
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Old 08-02-2013, 05:28 AM   #128
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QUESTION:. Do you all feel that separating the terms 'flying the sidecar' from what could be considered just hard cornering with the sidecar wheel in the air is a valid thing to consider?
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Old 08-02-2013, 05:47 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude View Post
QUESTION:. Do you all feel that separating the terms 'flying the sidecar' from what could be considered just hard cornering with the sidecar wheel in the air is a valid thing to consider?
The least experienced first yes, one needs to be comfortable with chair in the air before you can have use it as strategy for recovery from a poor decision.DB
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:21 AM   #130
claude
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Originally Posted by davebig View Post
The least experienced first yes, one needs to be comfortable with chair in the air before you can have use it as strategy for recovery from a poor decision.DB
The idea of driving in circles toward the sidecar is to get a feel of when th sidecar wheel comes up. That will help those just learning to no over react to a situation that may not really be an issue. Some have over reacted and gotten into trouble where there should have been no real alarm. Again..it all ultimately comes down to practice and getting to know you machine.
Just because the wheel comes up , or the operator thinks the wheel comes up, does not mean there is a cause for much action on the part of the driver. The initial reaction of the newbie is typically to correct which can end up being and over correction which can lead to a change in direction toward the potentially evil side of the road.
All of the stuff about flying the chair at the balance point is fine and well but we need to learn where the differences are.

Hal Kendall PhD...Good friend and co founder of the USCA along with the original USCA Side Safety Program wrote this in a response to an email he received a while back. He copied it to me and I am sharing it here.


>>You are correct in that flying of the chair is the source of widespread ignorance and consequently ill judgement at times. The problem is that there is not one physical concept but two entirely different physical concepts at play, and the false tales arise when one tries to combine both concepts into a single package.



The first is when the rig is driven in a spirited fashion. This by definition may be turning slowly but with a very light chair, or turning sharply, again with a light chair. Yes, it is very easy to "loft" the chair. By contrast, a light bike with a very heavy chair might be driven hard and tight and not lift the chair, or is very difficult to lift. Both these extreme cases are in fact similar and obey the basic physical laws of motion and turning, which induces a force acting through the center of mass or gravity outwards. This in turn produces an overturning couple or moment tending to cause the rig to lift up. Countering this is a restraining couple or moment made up of the total weight of the rig (plus occupants or gear) tending to keep the sidecar tire and wheel planted on the ground. At first, you will just compress the suspension of the bike and unload the compression on the sidecar spring. The rig will just feel a trifle lighter.



As you either increase your speed, or tighten the turn you will reach a point where the sidecar tire and wheel is just off the ground. This also happens to ANY two track or three track vehicle, whether a trike, a car, or a truck. And as you increase your speed or tighten you turn a bit more so the sidecar tire will begin to come off the ground, just as the inside front wheel of any sports car will come off the ground. No biggie. But the problem is that under these conditions you are NOT flying the chair - just driving the rig in a spirited fashion. To go right you turn the bars to the right, and to go left you turn your bars to the left. This is because your center of gravity, even when the rig is slightly airbourne is to the right of the tipover line between the bottom of your front tire and the bottom of your rear tire.



Now, either go faster or turn even more tightly. As you do so so the point where your center of gravity meets the road surface begins to edge closer to the tipover line and the rig gets even lighter. But, as long as it is to the right, then normal steering continues. Again, just spirited driving. And you are still in command of a two trak vehicle, abiet a lopsided one with a lousy weight distribution.



However, when the center of gravity finally reaches the tipover line all hell breaks loose. You are no longer driving a two track vehicle but a lopsided single track vehicle, like a bicycle or a solo motorcycle. And just as you steered your solo at speed by countersteering so you must now control your rig by countersteering. And you are truly flying.



This state of affairs came about by a misguided solo expert who claimed that even when the rig was on the ground and you were going straight that if you hit a pothole you would indeed have to countersteer. This unproven concept was unfortunately upheld by a vast sidecar population and took several years to get this misguided concept out of the general sidecar population. It is worth noting that this idea that the sidecar was indeed flying at any time the sidecar tire left the ground has never found favor in Germany, the UK, Japan, or Australia going back as far as the early 1900s. By not distinguishing under what condition it takes to actually make the rig fly this has been the source of the confusion.



It is also worthy of note that any car with a positrack rear end or locking differential can be made to fly about as easily as a rig if you know how to do it. And even large trucks and semis with trailers can also be made to fly. They all follow the same physical laws. In this there is nothing special about a rig. One must learn to deal with its eccentricities - by practice, practice, practice.

http://media.caranddriver.com/images...-s-429x262.jpg



A final note, flying the chair is just as illegal as is a stoppe or a wheelie on a solo. And if a bobby, smokey, or copper observes this he is just as likely to write you a ticket for dangerous driving. A few years ago I personally served as an amicus curie or friend of the court for a sidecarist who, while driving in a spirited fashion was ticketed by a smokey in backwards, LA. I got him off by advising the court on the dynamics of a sidecar rig. Had he been actually flying the chair I would not have intervened.



This is explained more fully in my manuals, available on the USCA website, www.sidecar.com. No charge. Just download.


Hal Kendall


=======
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claude screwed with this post 08-02-2013 at 06:34 AM
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:00 AM   #131
Midnullarbor
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As Hal Kendall (above) has used the term "lofting" the chair . . . perhaps that would be a better word than "flying" (which can be taken as flying high or flying low).



A personal opinion only :
I would not use "flying" to describe the maximum-cornering situation where the sidecar wheel is completely de-weighted and is skimming along "at or just above" the road surface.

"Flying", in the case of "up in the air" ~ is a situation arising from deliberate ostentation [possibly "good"] or from unintended tilting of the outfit in a hot corner [probably "bad"]. And both the ''good" and the "bad" have the potential to turn "ugly" as well. And faster makes for uglier.

Flying at very low speeds (practising during tight turning) is a very different animal from flying at a high speed on a curve on public roadway.
But of course you should have to practise the one before you move onto the other.

Is high-speed high-flying (in a corner) ever desirable? It will only worsen [widen] the cornering line.
Drivers certainly should have the confidence and skill to deal "with finesse" with the chair that starts to fly high . . . but I would be glad to learn of situations where deliberately flying (high) is a useful recovery strategy.


Granted, in rare situations it can be useful to loft the sidecar wheel over a large rock (in slow off-road conditions), but this can hardly be called "recovery".
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:53 AM   #132
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I think we are starting to get a little too PC here lately, this is not directed at anyone in particular in any particular thread either just a general observation. I don't think we need to be that worried about defining which way we are turning and especially lifting the sidecar wheel off of the ground. I can ride any road up here in the mountains and maintaining the posted speed limit the sidecar wheel will never come off of the ground and there are some very tight and twisty mountain roads up here. If my sidecar wheel is off of the ground I am either goofing off, showing off or exceeding the posted speed limit. There are of course going to be extreme exceptions to everything and coming out of the West Vail roundabout onto Westbound I70 is one of them. The ramp is angled so far to the left that if you are going anywhere above 5 mph the chair is going to lift, these are the reasons that people need to practice lifting the sidecar wheel because these few exceptions will bite you in the ass if you do not know what to do when they are encountered.

I am by no means an expert sidecar jockey and I never even touched a sidecar rig until I bought my Ural in 2006. Since then I have over 70,000 miles logged between the Ural and the GS rig in every kind of weather and terrain there is in North America but I still do not think that makes me an expert. My world works for me the way I do things and I would never propose to tell someone how they should do things, I can only tell them how I have figured out how to do it and still survive. Everyone needs to practice on their own and learn how to deal with their circumstances on their rigs because they are all different and the only way to truly learn is to do it until it becomes automatic. When people ask me how they should do a certain manuever or how they should react to a certain situation all I can tell them is how I do it and that the only way for them to deal with it is practice it. I do some things completely differently between the Ural and the GS because the rigs are completely different and handle things completely different so there is no correct way to do things for everyone on every rig. The only correct way is the way that works in your rig in your situation so that you will survive to ride another day and often it comes down to survival in my world.

Shouldn't all of you people be out there riding and practicing?
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:04 AM   #133
claude
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Great discussion I feel and thanks for your input. I do no know you and have no idea of your experience with sidecar but that is of no matter. Please entertain my Reponses within your test below. Practice will prevail in the real world as all we can express here are in words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnullarbor View Post
.
As Hal Kendall (above) has used the term "lofting" the chair . . . perhaps that would be a better word than "flying" (which can be taken as flying high or flying low).

Okay, our idea is as such. Aggressive cornering would mean going thru a corner with the sidecar up due to the cornering forces acting on the machine as a whole. Weight transfer will happen with any outfit and with any outfit a point will be reached where the sidecar wheel will come up. Before we get into a discussion on specific terminologies we do not feel that simply lofting the sidecar wheel in a turn should be defined as flying the chair. Simply lofting the sidecar wheel off the road surface should be related to aggressive cornering while flying the chair could be reserved for a place where the chair is at the balance point and we are now riding the outfit more like a very lopsided solo bike. Please Bear with me here.,



A personal opinion only :
I would not use "flying" to describe the maximum-cornering situation where the sidecar wheel is completely de-weighted and is skimming along "at or just above" the road surface.

Agree as I mentioned above

"Flying", in the case of "up in the air" ~ is a situation arising from deliberate ostentation [possibly "good"] or from unintended tilting of the outfit in a hot corner [probably "bad"]. And both the ''good" and the "bad" have the potential to turn "ugly" as well. And faster makes for uglier.

Flying the chair at a balance point can be done at any speed. And is not the same as aggressive corneing.

Flying at very low speeds (practising during tight turning) is a very different animal from flying at a high speed on a curve on public roadway.
But of course you should have to practise the one before you move onto the other.

Yes, I agree if the terminoilogy is common between us. My point is trying to define the terminology to simplify things and creart eless confusion that we have seen in days past. This alone can be confusiong to some until they get it...lol

Is high-speed high-flying (in a corner) ever desirable? It will only worsen [widen] the cornering line.
Drivers certainly should have the confidence and skill to deal "with finesse" with the chair that starts to fly high . . . but I would be glad to learn of situations where deliberately flying (high) is a useful recovery strategy.

From what you wrote here I think we are close to being on the same page. There are limits to any vehicle. True flying the chair as I am attempting to explain may have a place but it is a place where one has gotten to the edge of control when done not on purpose in a hard turn without Knowing where this line is important if one reaches this. Knowing when you are below this line is probably more important as it will allow you to maintain control to a higher level than would be possible if the limits were not explored some.


Granted, in rare situations it can be useful to loft the sidecar wheel over a large rock (in slow off-road conditions), but this can hardly be called "recovery".

Agreed THAT it can be a benefit to be able to loft the sidecar wheel over that stinky swelled up groundhog. Saw a friend hit one once and the sucker exploded...not a pretty picture..lol. In doing this type of maneuver it isn't relative whether it should be called flying the chair or not (it isn't) but rather that one has gotten to appoint of being able to avoid a bad situation easily through practice.
.
My point and Hal's is that if we were to be able to separate two terms: 'Flying the chair ' from 'aggressive cornering' we could possibly cut out some of the confusion that has been around for some time now.
Proposed definitions>>>

Flying the chair: Having the outfit at a balance point where it is being ridden more like a very unbalanced solo bike. Countersteering is in effect.
Aggressive cornering (or maneuvering) : Sidecar wheel is off ground but we are not into a countersteering solo bike mode.


Make sense??? :-)
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claude screwed with this post 08-02-2013 at 08:10 AM
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:39 PM   #134
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Claude:
Thanks for posting Hal Kendall's write-up.

Gave me a whole "new" [to me] way of looking at the chair coming up. Really makes sense.

Wish that it had been included in the STEP classes I took.

Duncan
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:45 AM   #135
claude
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Claude:
Thanks for posting Hal Kendall's write-up.

Gave me a whole "new" [to me] way of looking at the chair coming up. Really makes sense.

Wish that it had been included in the STEP classes I took.

Duncan
Duncan what Hal wrote is easy to understand and is completely true and really simple once one gets a little experience. I only wish we could see that type of simplicity expressed more often.
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