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Old 07-22-2013, 07:50 AM   #31
JustKip
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Originally Posted by ausfahrt View Post
So the days of manufacturers standing behind their products are not entirely behind us? Fantastic!

I can't help but wonder though, if the fact that the problem was posted on this forum, affected BMW's decision to send you a new shock.
Wilbers isn't affiliated with BMW. They are a completely different company that only makes shocks.

Yacugar uses the same basic design, but with a 16mm shaft vs 14 mm for Wilbers and Ohlins, specifically to address the problem mentioned in this thread.
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Old 07-22-2013, 09:08 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by ausfahrt View Post
I can't help but wonder though, if the fact that the problem was posted on this forum, affected BMW's decision to send you a new shock.
Wilbers, not BMW.

I haven't mentioned to Wilbers that this thread exists, and it is unlikely that they know.

Recall that I didn't make any demand of them. I offered to send them the shock for inspection, as a complete breakdown such as I experienced should not happen. I did not conceal that the shock was six years old and has been with me for about 200.000 km.
I did not ask for a new shock, I did not ask for free service of the old, nor did I imply faulty workmanship of any kind.

They responded by sending me a new shock.
I find that extraordinary, no less.

[TaSK]
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:31 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by tagesk View Post
Wilbers, not BMW.

I haven't mentioned to Wilbers that this thread exists, and it is unlikely that they know.


[TaSK]
I meant Wilbers, my bad.

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Old 07-23-2013, 03:00 AM   #34
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wilbers replacement

before reading this thread I was thinking of putting Wilbers on my 13 GSA, NOW I know I am installing Wilbers after seeing customer service like that!
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:58 AM   #35
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I'll second that! I also like that the body of the shock is steel so the oil stays cleaner longer and don't have to service as often. Now have to start saving my nickels so when warranty is up I will be ready! If the stockers fail hopefully will be right before warranty is done so I can have a new set of shocks for it when it gets sold.
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:46 AM   #36
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Hmm. While I agree it is great that Wilbers stepped up with a replacement shock, I would rather not have one fail and leave me stranded or dead, so I may have to go with the larger shaft. A bigger shaft is always better....
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:41 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by lhendrik View Post
Hmm. While I agree it is great that Wilbers stepped up with a replacement shock, I would rather not have one fail and leave me stranded or dead, so I may have to go with the larger shaft. A bigger shaft is always better....
Actually this is not true (at least with shocks) there are trade offs. Fixed piston size, larger shaft means less volume of oil below the piston, all other thing equal, so more stroke required for a given level of force, and also less max damping force.

It is complicated but basically there are good reasons why a given shaft size is what it is, and not always as big as possible. The oil has to go somewhere to let the piston move through it to create damping force. The shaft diameter displaces a lot of oil, different amounts at different stroke positions. Think about the hydrolock if there were no gas reservoir. Then there's the whole materials side of it.

BTW great to see a manuf like Wilbers step up and take care of an issue like this.
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:07 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Actually this is not true (at least with shocks) there are trade offs. Fixed piston size, larger shaft means less volume of oil below the piston, all other thing equal, so more stroke required for a given level of force, and also less max damping force.

It is complicated but basically there are good reasons why a given shaft size is what it is, and not always as big as possible. The oil has to go somewhere to let the piston move through it to create damping force. The shaft diameter displaces a lot of oil, different amounts at different stroke positions. Think about the hydrolock if there were no gas reservoir. Then there's the whole materials side of it.

BTW great to see a manuf like Wilbers step up and take care of an issue like this.

There are also good reasons why the shaft is upsized on other makes of shock in place of a comparatively small amount of additional oil under the piston.

I doubt the amount of oil under the piston has fuck-all to do with Wilber's choice of shaft diameter, to be honest.

Just sayin'
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:20 PM   #39
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If you have less area below the piston, to do the same work, a higher pressure is needed. Higher pressures increase wear and need upgraded and more expensive materials. And the oil shears down quicker. Rebound damping is important.

So shaft diameter IS quite important and WAS chosen for many reasons. Or do not believe me and my years of hydraulic system design experience.

Rod
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:43 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
If you have less area below the piston, to do the same work, a higher pressure is needed. Higher pressures increase wear and need upgraded and more expensive materials. And the oil shears down quicker. Rebound damping is important.

So shaft diameter IS quite important and WAS chosen for many reasons. Or do not believe me and my years of hydraulic system design experience.

Rod
Ted Porter, of BeemerShop fame and Wilbers expert extraordinaire, told me pretty much the same thing when he was advising me on my shock purchase.

I went with Yacugar and the 16mm shaft, for the same reasons the OP should have...excessive weight. There's really no other reason to go bigger. The 14mm shaft suffers stress cracks only when loaded heavy. Otherwise, Ohlins and Wilbers are awesome!

Oh, and BTW; yes, you do have shorter service intervals with a bigger shaft and less oil.

JustKip screwed with this post 07-24-2013 at 03:23 PM
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:33 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
If you have less area below the piston, to do the same work, a higher pressure is needed. Higher pressures increase wear and need upgraded and more expensive materials. And the oil shears down quicker. Rebound damping is important.

So shaft diameter IS quite important and WAS chosen for many reasons. Or do not believe me and my years of hydraulic system design experience.

Rod
+1 There are a whole cascade of things that happen when you need to increase the shaft diameter. As I am sure you know. One of the simplest, for people who have not worked in this industry is the gas pressure. Larger shaft means larger shaft cross sectional area relative to (floating) piston area. This reduces amount of attainable peak damping force (PSI*diff area). Also INCREASES static gas offset force (PSI* shaft area). But then to get more peak damping force you have to increase internal gas pressure. That increases the static offset force as well as raises internal stresses on seals etc. etc.

It really is a very involved design trade off, and as someone else said you better have a good reason to want the larger diameter shaft as a primary concern and then be willing to accept the compromises. But the thing is it increases stresses on other parts while at the same time the extra loads you'd want it for in the first place also does that.

FYI I used to work for/with a guy who made custom automotive racing shocks, and rebuilt other high-end shocks (Penskes Ohlins etc.) for major pro teams. I learned a lot but certainly no expert. Enough to know how complicated this is and how much of a black art in many ways. Any reputable high end aftermarket shock manuf has put in many thousands of hours minimum in design trade offs and computer sim CAD time on exactly these issues.
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:45 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by tagesk View Post



Ladies and Gentlemen,
May I be so bold as to decleare Wilbers, by their representative Triple Tuning, to this years winner of Customer Service.

The paperwork simply says "Guarantee" (in German, obviously).

I shipped the broken shock to them, attaching a letter describing what had happened, and the service history.
As the shock had 200.000 km on it after six years of service, I did not make any demands. Not for a new shock, not for a free repair, nothing.
Still, Wilbers stepped up to their product, and I have in my hand a new shock.

I am humbled by Wilbers.

[TaSK]
You could at least smile TaSK! For a guy that just got a Christmas present in July, you look kinda PO'd.
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Old 07-25-2013, 04:37 AM   #43
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You could at least smile TaSK! For a guy that just got a Christmas present in July, you look kinda PO'd.
That's my "I'm impressed"-look.
My "This is cool"-look can be seen here.


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Old 07-25-2013, 04:47 AM   #44
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Hey Mr. C what up? PM'd you.
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Old 07-25-2013, 11:59 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
If you have less area below the piston, to do the same work, a higher pressure is needed. Higher pressures increase wear and need upgraded and more expensive materials. And the oil shears down quicker. Rebound damping is important.

So shaft diameter IS quite important and WAS chosen for many reasons. Or do not believe me and my years of hydraulic system design experience.

Rod

Whoa buddy. Let's make it clear that no one was indicting you or your years of experience, so you can take a deep breath.

I just don't believe that Wilbers decided that a smaller shaft diameter was a good idea based on that information. I think they probably had that shaft from a previous shock and thought it would work fine on the GS, which is clearly not the case. It sounds like precisely the sort of answer invented afterward to justify such a wispy component.

I just spent 6,100 miles, two-up and loaded for 3 weeks of camping on my 1150, riding some really stupid trails which they called 'unmaintained roads' one day (four crashes) and 91 mph super slab out of Montana the next. All of it two-up and loaded. I am certainly happy that my shock did not fail. Nor did my fluid boil, seals blow, or high pressure detonate the shock body.

I'll stick with Ohlins.

PS
Happy TasK wasn't hurt when his shock failed. And I'm really happy he received a new shock for free. But I wish he would sell that thing and install something else.

What if next time he is injured-- who will maintain the GSpot FAQ?

(not it)
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