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Old 07-03-2013, 06:20 AM   #16
jimhaleyscomet
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Thanks for the experience

Thanks for sharing your story. It will help keep me on my toes with ATGATT, maintenance, and "what if" games while riding.

I don't mean the following to hijack your thread, but I had a similar experience with a near ATGATT fault way back when a helmet was the only gear. We were riding in a sand pit and I took off my helmet because it was hot and we were going so slow. We then moved from one sand pit to another so I put on my helmet just to transport it to another location. It was amazing how fast my pokey 250 could get to 50mph on a short dual track trail. Along the way I drifted just off the trail and instead of a depression in the road, I cleared a dry stream and ran the front wheel into the other side of about a one foot vertical. The vertical rise slowed the bike enough to send me over the handlebars. Bike and I did a couple of flips.... but by paddling in the air ;-) , I was able to out run being crushed by the 350lb machine. One person watching thought I was dead. Nope, but sure was glad I had on the helmet to protect my skull, face, and eyes from the sharp points on the rocks and tumbleweed I was plowing through!
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Old 07-03-2013, 07:20 AM   #17
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Good on you for having the guts to post your experience. Take the well intentioned advice for what's its worth. Learn and live to ride again. Welcome to the club
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:06 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbachicken View Post
I am satisfied with the way things went after I departed the roadway, I am satisfied with the way things went before the cable stuck. The part in the middle is the part I have issue with, and replacing the cables will be the first part of it. Having experienced this moment of confusion before my moment of contusion should prove beneficial in the future as well...
OK. Can you think of anything you could have done differently during the part in the middle that might have prevented the crash?
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:19 AM   #19
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I want to know what REALLY happened.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:33 AM   #20
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Okay so when he pulled in the clutch the RPMs increased whereas he wanted the RPMs to decrease. This led his mind to react by stopping the increase, which was by letting the clutch back out, so he was back where he started. With the clutch pulled in he should have been able to stop, while getting an over-rev until he remembered to hit the kill switch. The bike would not stall since the clutch was disengaged.

OTOH he could have left the clutch alone and hit the brakes. Locking up the rear would definitely have stalled the engine. If leaned over, keep it locked until either stopped on the tires or the lowside is done happening (that is, "lay 'er down", LOL) rather than release and maybe get a highside (or engine re-start!). A lowside would more likely have been some roadrash and scrapes on the bike, better than what happened. Even with the throttle stuck, engine running, and the clutch engaged, brakes should still have slowed down the bike.

Oh, and the brakes can be applied on grass so the concept of intending to run across grass and over ditches at full speed before applying the brakes, uhh, no. If he was intending to coast/engine brake into the corner, there should have been plenty of opportunity to substitute hard braking instead. What the incident comes down to is that no decisive action was taken before it was too late . Pull in clutch, brake, kill (to hell with the over-rev, save yourself first).

Much easier to figure this out from the keyboard than the seat, of course. Glad OP survived.
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viverrid screwed with this post 07-03-2013 at 12:23 PM
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:26 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
Okay so when he pulled in the clutch the RPMs increased whereas he wanted the RPMs to decrease. This led his mind to react by stopping the increase, which was by letting the clutch back out, so he was back where he started. With the clutch pulled in he should have been able to stop, while getting an over-rev until he remembered to hit the kill switch. The bike would not stall since the clutch was disengaged.

OTOH he could have left the clutch alone and hit the brakes. Locking up the rear would definitely have stalled the engine. If leaned over, keep it locked until either stopped on the tires or the lowside is done happening (that is, "lay 'er down", LOL) rather than release and maybe get a highside (or engine re-start!). A lowside would more likely have been some roadrash and scrapes on the bike, better than what happened. Even with the throttle stuck, engine running, and the clutch engaged, brakes should still have slowed down the bike.

Oh, and the brakes can be applied on grass so the concept of intending to run across grass and over ditches at full speed before applying the brakes, uhh, no. If he was intending to coast/engine brake into the corner, there should have been plenty of opportunity to substitute hard braking instead. What the incident comes down to is that no decisive action was taken before it was too late . Pull in clutch, brake, kill (to hell with the over-rev, save yourself first).

Much easier to figure this out from the keyboard than the seat, of course. Glad OP survived.

viverrid, Some good points there , and keep up the fighting / living attitude, Cancer Sucks!!

Bubba, you've learned more from this one down than most folks do who experiance many. Simply because you have admitted fault and are taking action to correct it. Good on ya! Hope the ribs don't take to long to heal.
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:02 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
Okay so when he pulled in the clutch the RPMs increased whereas he wanted the RPMs to decrease. This led his mind to react by stopping the increase, which was by letting the clutch back out, so he was back where he started. With the clutch pulled in he should have been able to stop, while getting an over-rev until he remembered to hit the kill switch. The bike would not stall since the clutch was disengaged.

OTOH he could have left the clutch alone and hit the brakes. Locking up the rear would definitely have stalled the engine. If leaned over, keep it locked until either stopped on the tires or the lowside is done happening (that is, "lay 'er down", LOL) rather than release and maybe get a highside (or engine re-start!). A lowside would more likely have been some roadrash and scrapes on the bike, better than what happened. Even with the throttle stuck, engine running, and the clutch engaged, brakes should still have slowed down the bike.

Oh, and the brakes can be applied on grass so the concept of intending to run across grass and over ditches at full speed before applying the brakes, uhh, no. If he was intending to coast/engine brake into the corner, there should have been plenty of opportunity to substitute hard braking instead. What the incident comes down to is that no decisive action was taken before it was too late . Pull in clutch, brake, kill (to hell with the over-rev, save yourself first).

Much easier to figure this out from the keyboard than the seat, of course. Glad OP survived.

I am going with this one, it is what I seem to recall is the actual problem, what we used to call information overload causing decision paralysis. This is why experience is so important before us noobs get liter-bikes, in my opinion, or for that matter before we head out to complicated wiggly roads we should have a bunch of track time and normal road experience. I bet some time on dirt would have been helpful, but life was not arranged that way for me. Now I live in an area full of swamps and private property (none of which is mine) so even that seems unlikely for me at the moment.

I do believe what he stated about no decision being made until too late getting me in this mess, in any case. That distills down my situation quite well, imho.. Such is noob-hood... Learn and ride another day.
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:59 AM   #23
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BTW, back in them olden days before standardized controls (back when before getting on a new-to-you bike, you'd ask "is it 1 down and 4 up" 'cuz sometimes it wasn't) I rode bikes where the "kill" was a kill BUTTON that shorted out the magneto ignition. You had to HOLD IT DOWN until then engine stopped. Now that I think of it, I've been on dirt-only bikes that had that arrangement, in more recent times.

If the wire to the button broke, or even if the wire was good but the connections had too much resistance and the bike was in a high-rev condition (like a stuck throttle), sometimes they WOULD NOT KILL. Then the way to get it shut down was to intentionally stall it by looking up the rear while in gear. with the clutch engaged.

===

Here's another stuck throttle story, in a car. High school friend had a Barracuda that looked cool but had a weak motor. We were in a shopping center parking lot and he wanted to "patch out", burn some rubber. With his automatic trans and weak motor, his technique was to get going at a good clip in reverse, then throw it into L with the throttle floored.

So he did this, but this time around (it was later figured out) a motor mount broke, the engine shifted and jammed the mechanical (push/pull rods involved) throttle linkage in WFO position. So there we were stuck at full throttle headed out the driveway of the mall, which ended in a Tee with a busy road. My friend sat frozen behind the wheel of the accelerating car (with a 3-speed auto it would probably get to maybe 50 in L) doing nothing except scream "WHATDOIDO WHATDOIDO WHATDOIDO".

I told him TURN IT OFF HIT THE BRAKES SHIFT TO NEUTRAL. Actually that maybe wasn't the best order of the operations and any two would have saved us, but doing it in that order saved both us and the engine, with the last operation then being redundant. As it was, he couldn't stop completely before getting to the road, but was slowed down enough he was able to slew around the turn and stop rather than going straight across the road at high speed. He left it sitting right there until a tow truck picked it up
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Old 07-04-2013, 05:08 PM   #24
NJ-Brett
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In the old days of slide carbs with one cable, they used to stick all the time.
In the day of return cables and CV carbs, they can not stick open any more, thus removing all the fun.

All those Toyota throttle issues ended up being people stepping on the gas instead of the brake...the NTSB checked things out and found the ecu reporting no brake and wide open throttle I heard..
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:58 PM   #25
viverrid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ-Brett View Post
All those Toyota throttle issues ended up being people stepping on the gas instead of the brake...
Yup. Brakes overpower throttle.

EXCEPT if, INSTEAD OF stopping, the driver tries to maintain an ongoing highway speed by dragging the brakes instead of "just" STOPPING, while keeping the car turned on and in gear with WFO throttle. There was one and only one case like that, that I heard reported. Eventually he burnt out the brakes and then the brakes couldn't overcome the throttle, didn't know why the push-button start car wouldn't shut off (loaner car, he kept pushing it but didn't know he had to HOLD it down), and claimed the car wouldn't shift out of Drive (electronically controlled auto trans, no mechanical linkage).

We know this because the occupants called 9-1-1 on a cellular phone while it was happening. Eventually they ran out of road and IIRC everyone in the car died.
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:13 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbachicken View Post
Looking back, number one is making sure the cables (and all else) on the bike are in good repair before riding it

Number two is remembering that when a clutch is squeezed,

Number three is akin to number one, maintenance on these machines is key to successful operation

Number four is ATGATT

Number five is that if I want to ride, I NEED a cellphone
Number one is not to panic.

Number two is your finger (or two fingers if your bike needs that much strength) should have already been ln the clutch lever. Never take your finger off the clutch lever.

Number three is when you need to stop quickly you apply the clutch first, brakes second, and ignore everything else but balance and modulating the front brake to avoid locking it.

Your back wheel is wider than the front. The engine on most bikes can easilly exceed the amount of grip the front wheel has. And since rear brakes tend to be almost useless (due to weight shifting to the front wheel under braking) they don't have a hope in hell of stopping you when the throttle is open.

I would ignore the kill switch personally. Just grab the clutch. You may need the engine later on (eg, to gtf out of the way of a truck if you find yourself on the wrong side of the road).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbachicken View Post
I am also glad I was NOT speeding or under any sort of influence, because had I been going faster I would likely have struck the brick church, and had I been relaxed (intoxicated) enough to attempt the turn I would have at least collected a host of those signs
I think had you been intoxicated/relaxed you would have just gone through the corner and on the other side thought "maybe not so fast next time ". Maybe at the worst you might have exited on the wrong side of the road and hopefully any oncoming truck would have the sense to swerve off road to avoid you.

Not that I'm advocating riding after a few drinks, but panic is a thousand times more lethal than being intoxicated. Number one is don't panic. When you panic, you're a gonner.

But don't be hard on yourself, being calm is easier said than done. Experience is probably the only way to learn it?

Your crash is very common. I was following a friend once who came up to a corner a bit hot, panicked, and clipped a tree at speed. I not only could have taken the corner at the speed she was going but was right behind her going the same speed and parked my bike (well actually threw it to the ground) long before the tree and sprinted up to where she fell. The difference is she panicked and I didn't.

Your mechanical failure was just the straw that broke the camels back in my opinion. A more experienced rider wouldn't have even blinked.
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:28 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
OTOH he could have left the clutch alone and hit the brakes. Locking up the rear would definitely have stalled the engine. If leaned over, keep it locked until either stopped on the tires or the lowside is done happening (that is, "lay 'er down", LOL) rather than release and maybe get a highside (or engine re-start!). A lowside would more likely have been some roadrash and scrapes on the bike, better than what happened. Even with the throttle stuck, engine running, and the clutch engaged, brakes should still have slowed down the bike.
Maybe on a CT500 the rear brake would have stalled the engine. On my KTM they'd just glow red and I'd continue accelerating. But I sespect even a very weak engine could not overpower the brakes (especially 30 year old brakes) when the revs are high.

When I had a brake failure once, I noticed the bike wasn't accelerating out of a corner as fast as it normally would. Suspicious I tried opening the throttle wide for a moment... front wheel barely left the ground. Pulled over to the shoulder and as soon as the clutch was half engaged the back wheel locked up. My rear brake was fully applied for nearly a minute and I barely even noticed. The disk was white hot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viverrid View Post
Oh, and the brakes can be applied on grass so the concept of intending to run across grass and over ditches at full speed before applying the brakes, uhh, no.
On DRY grass. Brakes can be applied on DRY grass. Do not touch them if it's rained in the last week.

I think he could have stopped, or at least slowed down to jogging pace, before leaving the road. 40mph isn't that fast, a bit of practice and you can stop very quick.
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:21 AM   #28
Bubbachicken OP
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Talking grass and other ruminations (no pun intended)

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhibeckert View Post
Maybe on a CT500 the rear brake would have stalled the engine. On my KTM they'd just glow red and I'd continue accelerating. But I sespect even a very weak engine could not overpower the brakes (especially 30 year old brakes) when the revs are high.

When I had a brake failure once, I noticed the bike wasn't accelerating out of a corner as fast as it normally would. Suspicious I tried opening the throttle wide for a moment... front wheel barely left the ground. Pulled over to the shoulder and as soon as the clutch was half engaged the back wheel locked up. My rear brake was fully applied for nearly a minute and I barely even noticed. The disk was white hot.



On DRY grass. Brakes can be applied on DRY grass. Do not touch them if it's rained in the last week.

I think he could have stopped, or at least slowed down to jogging pace, before leaving the road. 40mph isn't that fast, a bit of practice and you can stop very quick.

The grass was actually VERY green and lush, on Tennessee clay, minor shower the afternoon before, and dew early that morning. It was plenty moist... Just hot and muggy out.

I have been considering some more of this as I am waiting for the remaining funds for the repairs to materialize (tight here at the moment still), and I have come to the realization that the bike can take a corner quite a bit faster than I have pushed her before, and that in addition, I COULD have stopped quite quickly had my confusion not gotten the better of me. Next time I will be more prepared.

It has indeed been an education, and I again thank those who told me in the past not to start on a liter bike as a first, because this one is plenty for a noob. I also see that I need more road time, longer runs than the 30 minutes to an hour at a time I have been getting to date, and more of it on less straight roads. Not Tail of the Dragon stuff, mind you, but more the moderately lazy winding roads of the countryside around here.

This means time riding on days off instead of just going to work on the bike commuter style, which just breaks my heart. I realized that I have only a few, regularly traveled thus "comfortable" curves and the MSF course (NOT hard at all), plus lots of straight-line riding time, relative to little to no cornering time. How common is this, are people getting primarily straight road riding experience and missing all the curvy stuff unless they see track days?

I can look back and check (as the pic of the speedo is on this site from the day the bike came home, and I can compare it to it now) but I have something like 3-4K miles on her, and have very little cornering experience!! Odd how that just came to me tonight... I need to explore the country roads more, preferably getting off of the main highway and using the surface roads back in the woody areas I suppose. I need to do it before the rut hits local deer, too... That or keep a knife and some trash bags handy as well.. JK, I would NEVER do that....
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:51 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbachicken View Post
It has indeed been an education, and I again thank those who told me in the past not to start on a liter bike as a first, because this one is plenty for a noob.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbachicken View Post
I realized that I have only a few, regularly traveled thus "comfortable" curves and the MSF course (NOT hard at all), plus lots of straight-line riding time, relative to little to no cornering time. How common is this, are people getting primarily straight road riding experience and missing all the curvy stuff unless they see track days?
I used to ride a set of twisties with 263 corners in 19km (14 miles?) every day to/from work. Now I've moved closer to work (90 minutes each way was killing me, especially on cold/wet mornings and nights).

Now I do that run every weekend to visit family. So I definitely get plenty of experience in the bends. The range can be wet and often has leaves or fallen branches or even landslides/rocks over the road. Not to mention traffic moving a lot slower than I am.

Honestly though, I've done a lot of dirt riding. You learn more in one day of dirt riding than six months of street riding. When your bike slides in every corner, wheelspins at every acceleration, and skidding the wheels is the only way to stop quickly (builds a wall of gravel infront of the tyres), thrn you really find out how the bike behaves. And unlike a racetrack, you're doing it all at slow/safe speeds and (hopefully) enough safety gear so most crashes only result in bruises - if even that.
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Old 07-13-2013, 06:34 PM   #30
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Its FUN also!
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