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Old 07-29-2013, 11:50 AM   #136
cug
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichBMW View Post
There's far too many critics on here that try to sum this bike up after a 20 mile test ride.
You know, maybe you can take of your BMW glasses for a moment and consider something: I rode a BMW R1200R to the dealer. Glass smooth, this engine is incredibly relaxed and has exactly the perfect gear ratios to do touring on.

At the dealer, I took the watercooled R1200GS for a ride. I intentionally rode back exactly the same way I came on the R.

Some things to note:

1) The whole software / switches package is still quite a piece of crap. It was not possible to switch ESA settings at first. Turning the bike OFF and ON two times got that feature back.

2) It was not possible to switch riding modes during the first half of my ride. It took it while stopped though.

3) The engine had vibrations in every single part of the rev range. There wasn't one spot where it was actually running as smooth as the camhead R. This particular R has recently gotten a throttle body sync and is smoother than my Tiger 800 during highway riding. The GS wasn't even close.

4) The ESA suspension is fairly nice, although the differences in the various settings are absolutely minimal for someone with my weight (155lbs before gear). It's still not in the league of a custom suspension like Öhlins or Wilbers.

5) The bike did not keep a steady speed when held on the throttle. Between 2500 and 5000 rpm there wasn't a single spot where it was REALLY steady. Not too annoying, but when you're coming of bikes that are absolutely perfect in that regard, it's very noticeable and I have to ask myself why it is like that.

6) The windshield rattled on every bump in the road, and gave in slightly at higher speed. It feels ridiculously cheap. It works great, but man, it feels (and looks) like it'll rip off any second when going on a really bumpy highway at speed.

7) The rubber boot on the final drive had a large tear in it.

8) First gear was clunking in like I haven't felt since the early 90s.


Other than that, the bike is as close to perfect as one might expect after that much time and refinement.

I attributed a lot of this to the fact that it was a bike build in February. Since then quite a bit has changed, new switchgear, new clutch parts, probably a dozen or two software upgrades that might or might not have been applied on that particular bike.

Therefore I'm not too critical about some of these points, although they let me question the enthusiasm for it. I liked it. It has near perfect ergonomics for me. It has a lot of power (which I neither need nor really care for). But I find some of the execution of features really disappointing.

And I'm expressing my opinion only. You, on the other hand, seem to state that I'm categorically wrong. Which makes me wonder how it comes that your opinion should be any more valuable than any other person's opinion. So STFU about what I am supposed to feel on or about this bike. State your opinion - absolutely. But don't tell me what my opinion has to be.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:01 PM   #137
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Regarding the selection of riding modes, the owner's manual say this:

When the vehicle is stationary,
the selected riding mode
is activated after approx. two
seconds.
The new riding mode is activated
during operation under
the following conditions:
Throttle grip in neutral position
Clutch disengaged
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:05 PM   #138
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Why is he wearing the BMW hat? Maybe you're wearing your anti BMW hat ?

I'm about as care free of brand as possible just as long as the bike is good so take it for what its worth.

1 and 2 don't make much sense as you should be able to adjust ESA and ride modes on the fly. Maybe you just didn't know the procedure?

3. I rode my 07 GS to the dealer and demoed a new one on the same roads just like you did. I noticed no real difference in vibration. They were about equal

4. The suspension is as good as a custom ohlins or wilbers? You don't say? Weird.

5. The bike does exhibit surging issues. I just installed a Booster Plug and its gone. I agree I shouldn't have to add a $150 part to sort this out on a $19k bike but it is what it is I guess. For what its worth, I've noticed fueling issues on lots of bikes out of the crate.

6. The windshield. Well it moves mine hasn't broke yet and it works as it's designed.

The boot isn't explainable and the shifting seems to be weird on some bikes. I've ridden 3 of them and they were all smooth. Also, mine started smooth but has gotten much better as has the small amount of vibrations over the past 5000 miles.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:06 PM   #139
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Yep. I knew about that. It did not work until I stopped, switched modes once. After that it also worked while riding. Software glitch I suppose (the switch worked, it just didn't take the setting).

It was my third test ride on the new GS. I probably have around 200 miles combined experience on the bike. Not much - but what I have is the back and forth between the new GS and other bikes (an R1200R and a Tiger 800) and there it doesn't impress as much as some people might want others to believe. It's a great bike and I'm considering a 2014 at some point but that is more "despite the issues", not "because it's so unbelievably great".
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:19 PM   #140
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Aehm, are you kidding me? I bought 3 new and 2 used BMWs during the last 4 years. I am certainly not anti BMW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oz97tj View Post
1 and 2 don't make much sense as you should be able to adjust ESA and ride modes on the fly. Maybe you just didn't know the procedure?
Exactly, it doesn't make sense. And no, I know the procedure. Even the shop owner couldn't get ESA to switch settings when he started the bike. I didn't care because my test ride was to evaluate some other things.

And, as you might have read above: I don't put too much weight on these issues, other than thinking that BMW QA must be a bunch of morons getting a bike out with that many software / hardware glitches. In the end, these don't bother me too much, warranty time will take care of it sooner or later. It's just the reason I don't buy a first year BMW model anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oz97tj View Post
3. I rode my 07 GS to the dealer and demoed a new one on the same roads just like you did. I noticed no real difference in vibration. They were about equal
You're comparing a six year old model to the new one. I'm comparing a 2013 camhead to a 2013 water cooled. I'm also comparing it to a three cylinder engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oz97tj View Post
5. The bike does exhibit surging issues. I just installed a Booster Plug and its gone. I agree I shouldn't have to add a $150 part to sort this out on a $19k bike but it is what it is I guess. For what its worth, I've noticed fueling issues on lots of bikes out of the crate.
To be clear: that's f***ing ridiculous. I expect $10k bike to "just work out of the box" when I'm steady on the throttle. What do you think I expect from a $20k bike? Less?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oz97tj View Post
6. The windshield. Well it moves mine hasn't broke yet and it works as it's designed.
Let's just hope it stays that way. It works really well and as you can read above, that's what I stated. It just feels like a Lada, not like a BMW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oz97tj View Post
The boot isn't explainable and the shifting seems to be weird on some bikes.
Aehm, the torn rubber boot has been seen on a few bikes already. Even here are photos floating around. Again, not my major concern, warranty will take care of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oz97tj View Post
Also, mine started smooth but has gotten much better as has the small amount of vibrations over the past 5000 miles.
That's what a lot of people say and I have never found that to be the case. It's a matter of getting it set up right (throttle body sync or whatnot) or other mechanical issues, but very likely not something that happens as mechanical "break in" during such a short time. Parts are manufactured to such tight tolerances nowadays that "break in" is mainly tires and brakes, and getting everything lubricated again, plus tighten up all the bolts after a few shake down cycles.

What I found is that the owner "breaks in" much more than the bike. You (and I) just get used to things and we perceive them as normal after a while and don't notice them at all after another relatively short period of time. The issue is that you are used to different things than I am. Remember, I come from an engine concept that just plain vibrates less (triple), has a final drive that, although messy, doesn't feel as clunky, plus it has an aftermarket suspension fully set up for my taste. I also ride an R1200R from time to time which is set up pretty damn well, I have also owned an R1200GS for long enough to know it really well.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:24 PM   #141
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My point in my previous post isn't to say your wrong or to say its the perfect bike for everyone. Further I haven't seen anyone say how its the end all bike for everyone. It is however a bike that many like. I like mine. Others like theirs. If you don't like it why do you go out of your way to convince others that the bike they like isn't as good as they think?
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:45 PM   #142
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My point is: you need to compare yourself. It's a matter of perspective how much you will or won't like the new GS. There is a lot to be liked, but also a lot that is a matter of taste and preference.

It might not sound like it, but I actually like the bike (the whole package) enough to consider a 2014. Some of the things are just acquired taste, others are a matter of set up or perspective.

What surprises me is that BMW (and Ducati, and KTM) can get away with things that would get the Japanese killed. And I am admittedly part of that. I buy the bikes (F650GS, F800GS, R1200GS, R1200R, ...) knowing about the fall out and the warranty claims I'll likely have - just because they generally ride super nice and have all the latest gizmos that tickle the geek in me.
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Old 07-29-2013, 05:56 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
You know, maybe you can take of your BMW glasses for a moment and consider something: I rode a BMW R1200R to the dealer. Glass smooth, this engine is incredibly relaxed and has exactly the perfect gear ratios to do touring on.

At the dealer, I took the watercooled R1200GS for a ride. I intentionally rode back exactly the same way I came on the R.

Some things to note:

1) The whole software / switches package is still quite a piece of crap. It was not possible to switch ESA settings at first. Turning the bike OFF and ON two times got that feature back.

2) It was not possible to switch riding modes during the first half of my ride. It took it while stopped though.

3) The engine had vibrations in every single part of the rev range. There wasn't one spot where it was actually running as smooth as the camhead R. This particular R has recently gotten a throttle body sync and is smoother than my Tiger 800 during highway riding. The GS wasn't even close.

4) The ESA suspension is fairly nice, although the differences in the various settings are absolutely minimal for someone with my weight (155lbs before gear). It's still not in the league of a custom suspension like Öhlins or Wilbers.

5) The bike did not keep a steady speed when held on the throttle. Between 2500 and 5000 rpm there wasn't a single spot where it was REALLY steady. Not too annoying, but when you're coming of bikes that are absolutely perfect in that regard, it's very noticeable and I have to ask myself why it is like that.

6) The windshield rattled on every bump in the road, and gave in slightly at higher speed. It feels ridiculously cheap. It works great, but man, it feels (and looks) like it'll rip off any second when going on a really bumpy highway at speed.

7) The rubber boot on the final drive had a large tear in it.

8) First gear was clunking in like I haven't felt since the early 90s.


Other than that, the bike is as close to perfect as one might expect after that much time and refinement.

I attributed a lot of this to the fact that it was a bike build in February. Since then quite a bit has changed, new switchgear, new clutch parts, probably a dozen or two software upgrades that might or might not have been applied on that particular bike.

Therefore I'm not too critical about some of these points, although they let me question the enthusiasm for it. I liked it. It has near perfect ergonomics for me. It has a lot of power (which I neither need nor really care for). But I find some of the execution of features really disappointing.

And I'm expressing my opinion only. You, on the other hand, seem to state that I'm categorically wrong. Which makes me wonder how it comes that your opinion should be any more valuable than any other person's opinion. So STFU about what I am supposed to feel on or about this bike. State your opinion - absolutely. But don't tell me what my opinion has to be.

Hmmm....The thing about this whole conversation that gets me is that RichBMW simply said "I disagree with everything you said", which is his opinion. To which you responded "I'm expressing my opinion only". Two opinions, yet one warrants a "STFU"??
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:10 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
My point is: you need to compare yourself. It's a matter of perspective how much you will or won't like the new GS. There is a lot to be liked, but also a lot that is a matter of taste and preference.

It might not sound like it, but I actually like the bike (the whole package) enough to consider a 2014. Some of the things are just acquired taste, others are a matter of set up or perspective.

What surprises me is that BMW (and Ducati, and KTM) can get away with things that would get the Japanese killed. And I am admittedly part of that. I buy the bikes (F650GS, F800GS, R1200GS, R1200R, ...) knowing about the fall out and the warranty claims I'll likely have - just because they generally ride super nice and have all the latest gizmos that tickle the geek in me.
FWIW, aside from some lean surge between 4k-5k rpm, my GS doesn't have any of the problems you seem to have had on the demo bike(s?) you've ridden. Mine was built in May, delivered June, has 3k miles on it so far. It shifts perfectly, burns no oil, electronic modes work fine (although the maps could still be improved a bit), switchgear has survived numerous rainstorms, gas mileage improved after the first 800 miles. I've beat the heck out of on it bumpy roads and the windshield is tight as new, and provides better smoother airflow than any bike I've ever owned. Very noticeable differences between ESA modes for a 185 lb rider, too. The suspension seems as good and usable as a stock suspension can be, not harsh at all, if anything its underdamped; I'm comparing it to my Ohlins equipped Ducati, fwiw.

Regarding vibrations: to me it feels smoother, especially at higher rpms, than any previous oilhead I've borrowed or demo'ed. I still prefer the natural balance of my L-twin Ducati versus the "buzz" of a counterbalanced boxer setup, but its smooth enough at all rpms that it doesn't bother me after 500 mile days, so that is about all I can ask for.

Obviously experiences may vary. I'm pretty happy (ecstatic, actually) so far. I'd like to add a hyperpro steering damper kit and givi rack, but aftermarket parts are still hard to get and/or still in prototype.
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:22 PM   #145
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That's interesting. Both bikes I have tried had the surging at constant throttle. I first rode one without D-ESA, then one with D-ESA twice, about 1500 miles on the clock between my two testrides (~1500 when I had the first time, ~3000 when I tried it the second time).

I liked the D-ESA much better than the standard, but compared to my Tiger both were quite uninspiring in terms of suspension. Okay. Let's get over that, I'm not comparing apples to apples on this one.

Comparing smoothness is super hard as everybody perceives things differently. I'm very sensible in that regard, plus I currently ride one of the smoothest bikes around.

It's also interesting to hear that you have none of these issues. Hopefully they are rare and might come from a) an early production bike and b) the total abuse of a loaner sitting in the California sun when not being ridden.
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:26 PM   #146
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Come on guys let's not turn this forum into the K1600 forums. Everybody is entitled to their opinion whether it is positive or negative.

I did a lot of bitching about the problems with my K1600GT. Took some heat for it on the forums. Eventually sold the bike because BMW was doing absolutely nothing to address the problems.

I love my GSW. However if I start having problems I fully intend to vocalize them hear. This forum is not for just fanboys.
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:15 PM   #147
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... So, does anybody have further information regarding the subject of this thread?
New pics?
hearsay?
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Old 07-30-2013, 12:25 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
And I'm expressing my opinion only. You, on the other hand, seem to state that I'm categorically wrong. Which makes me wonder how it comes that your opinion should be any more valuable than any other person's opinion. So STFU about what I am supposed to feel on or about this bike. State your opinion - absolutely. But don't tell me what my opinion has to be.
Whoa, calm down. I'm basing my opinion on covering over 5000 miles on my LC. You've formed an opinion, and a summary of the bike after a couple of short test rides. Get over yourself.
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:00 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
My point is: you need to compare yourself. It's a matter of perspective how much you will or won't like the new GS. There is a lot to be liked, but also a lot that is a matter of taste and preference.

It might not sound like it, but I actually like the bike (the whole package) enough to consider a 2014. Some of the things are just acquired taste, others are a matter of set up or perspective.

What surprises me is that BMW (and Ducati, and KTM) can get away with things that would get the Japanese killed. And I am admittedly part of that. I buy the bikes (F650GS, F800GS, R1200GS, R1200R, ...) knowing about the fall out and the warranty claims I'll likely have - just because they generally ride super nice and have all the latest gizmos that tickle the geek in me.

It will be interesting to read your hit list when you finally actually own a 2014 GSW ... lengthy, I bet ... or, why take the chance! LOL ... voting with your checkbook does somehow validate the experience now doesn't it? A couple of test rides on a demo bike is not the depth of experience others have expressed here ... you have your opinion and we have ours ... mine is based upon over 50 years of comparative riding - the last 30 on BMW exclusively; so, I may be out of touch, eh?
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Old 07-30-2013, 07:08 AM   #150
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Yesterday I crash tested the windshield! In some deep sand while standing my bike decided to nap. My chest thought it a good idea to test the "weak" windshield mount.

Good news, the mechanism did not break. What did happen is the two inserts into the plastic that hold the windshield on pulled out. I popped it back on and its held fine. A little glue should fix it but in the meantime even not glued its holding fine. Those particular screw's only hold the windshield from sliding down and off the mount so its not a big deal.
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