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Old 07-09-2013, 11:31 AM   #16
DJFlowe
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I used to have real problems with throttle twitchiness, especially in low-speed maneuvers, till I took a training course.

Turns out, I was the problem.

Elbow too high, too much pressure on the bars and not enough using my knees to hold onto the tank translated into what I thought was a twitchy throttle.

Turns out I was just translating every bump and movement into throttle inputs.

Some better posture and practice using my knees on the tank, and it hasn't been a problem since.
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Old 07-09-2013, 02:42 PM   #17
Jan from Finland
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Most often the issue is fuel injection mapping not the ride by wire throttle. To increase mileage manufacturers like to cut the fuel off as often as possible. In addition some older and cheaper systems can't handle the off idle transition even if the mapping were perfect.

It's completely normal to use the clutch every time you touch the throttle or shifter on dirt bikes. It gives you more control and the bike is designed for it. However, heavier and more powerful street bikes are not meant to be ridden like that. They have heavier pull and constant slipping will burn the clutch. Having to use the clutch at every occasion is a distraction in traffic. It's a fault in a bike. At least I think so. It has nothing to do with my skills. On dirt I use the clutch all the time. I just don't like doing that on a street bike.

Actually it's not a street vs. dirt riding style. It's more about the engine power and torque. Big adventure bikes are controlled using the throttle even on the dirt. Where as lighter singles are controlled using the clutch. Not all the time but more often than not. Having to adjust a touchy throttle is a liability.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportsGuy View Post
Don't get me wrong...both bikes I own now are "throttle by wire", if you will, so I *understand* the basis for people responding in threads with comments like "the bike sux b/c the throttle is too touchy", etc.

But holy shit, EVERY bike is different, so YOU have to adapt to EVERY bike that's new to you.

Now, before I make this next statement, so thoughts:

1 - I am by no means the best rider around, nor do I claim super-human skills on or off road.
2 - I have taken several on and off road training classes, which did teach me a few things.

So...

Maybe these people are simply lacking some skill?

I don't really believe that in the vast majority of cases. In most cases, I think its a simple matter of not liking change. THAT is pretty normal for all of us in many cases over time.

But, I do wonder about some people...

EVERY class I've taken, and thus every subsequent ride I've taken, I've learned about an used this little thing called the clutch.

On road its pretty straight forward, but hit the dirt and things DO change, so using that clutch more solves a LOT of problems.

When people complain about slow speed throttle twitchiness, it makes me wonder if those people are using the clutch effectively? I have to admit, here, that plenty of times I'm lurchy and NOT smooth on my bikes, and its due, at least 50% of the time to either my clutch work or not paying attention to throttle control.

Yes, newer bikes with throttle by wire can require some changes in approach. Yep, I agree they can have touchier throttles, BUT to me that's just something I need to adjust to - like the new seat, the new windscreen, and new bend in the handlebars, the new grips, he new vibes, etc.

From where I sit, I'll happily take the benefits inherent with throttle by wire technology. If it means I need to exercise more control over my right wrist and work the clutch in different conditions, then so be it. Happy to adjust for the benefits of new technology. (And I don't just mean the immediate benefit son a given machine, I mean in the overall moving forward of technology.)

My intent here is "observation", not "judgment", so if you find your nostrils flaring, your blood pressure rising and your anger peaking, well, that's something you'll will need to deal with. ;) I'm not intending to single anyone out personally.
It is a rider issue, every bike forum has a small group of people that say OMG i kant stand mah bike the throttle is not safe it is too twitchy and on and off like teh light switch!

I think it is quite funny.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:16 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrphotoman View Post
It is a rider issue, every bike forum has a small group of people that say OMG i kant stand mah bike the throttle is not safe it is too twitchy and on and off like teh light switch!

I think it is quite funny.
Absolutely correct. Or they read a magazine test somewhere, or hear someone say, it has a twitchy throttle, I've seen people tell other people that is why they didn't buy this or that bike, the throttle was too twitchy, without ever having ridden it! That just tells me they weren't seriously going to buy it anyway, just an excuse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan from Finland View Post
Most often the issue is fuel injection mapping not the ride by wire throttle. To increase mileage manufacturers like to cut the fuel off as often as possible. In addition some older and cheaper systems can't handle the off idle transition even if the mapping were perfect.

It's completely normal to use the clutch every time you touch the throttle or shifter on dirt bikes. It gives you more control and the bike is designed for it. However, heavier and more powerful street bikes are not meant to be ridden like that. They have heavier pull and constant slipping will burn the clutch. Having to use the clutch at every occasion is a distraction in traffic. It's a fault in a bike. At least I think so. It has nothing to do with my skills. On dirt I use the clutch all the time. I just don't like doing that on a street bike.

Actually it's not a street vs. dirt riding style. It's more about the engine power and torque. Big adventure bikes are controlled using the throttle even on the dirt. Where as lighter singles are controlled using the clutch. Not all the time but more often than not. Having to adjust a touchy throttle is a liability.

I ride my street bikes like my dirt bikes, lots of clutch action. I'm used to it, and I feel it gives me more control. Also, when they are factory mapped, some of them are pretty lean off idle and surge strongly when rolling them on. Nothing that I've ever had a problem getting used to though.

But, there are differences. My old S4 Ducati has a pretty fast throttle response, when my wife started riding it, it took quite a bit for her to get used to the immediacy of the throttle response, especially after getting on it after her Sportster, which had no throttle response whatsoever.
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Old 07-11-2013, 11:25 AM   #20
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ask those KTM guys!

but seriously they try to pass emissions and lean it out at close/part throttle and it surges. no surprise there.

O2 simulators/bypass fixed it on my KTMs
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:09 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrphotoman View Post
It is a rider issue, every bike forum has a small group of people that say OMG i kant stand mah bike the throttle is not safe it is too twitchy and on and off like teh light switch!

I think it is quite funny.
Some of us are able to recognize shitty off-idle transition and surging and are intelligent enough to be able to correct it ourselves. Why make fun of things you obviously can't comprehend?
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:36 PM   #22
Jan from Finland
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Originally Posted by corndog67 View Post
I'm used to it, and I feel it gives me more control.
It gives more control but so does a manual ignition retard lever and placing your hand over the inlet to choke the carburetor and thereby richen the mixture. I prefer to leave those tasks to the ECU in modern bikes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corndog67 View Post
But, there are differences. My old S4 Ducati has a pretty fast throttle response, when my wife started riding it, it took quite a bit for her to get used to the immediacy of the throttle response, especially after getting on it after her Sportster, which had no throttle response whatsoever.
Fast throttle response is not the same as poor throttle response. One is preferred feature and the other is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
Some of us are able to recognize shitty off-idle transition and surging and are intelligent enough to be able to correct it ourselves.
+1 for that. Except in some cases it's not possibe to correct it without a complete redesign.
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Old 07-11-2013, 04:52 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan from Finland View Post
It gives more control but so does a manual ignition retard lever and placing your hand over the inlet to choke the carburetor and thereby richen the mixture. I prefer to leave those tasks to the ECU in modern bikes.

Fast throttle response is not the same as poor throttle response. One is preferred feature and the other is not.

+1 for that. Except in some cases it's not possibe to correct it without a complete redesign.
There are variable ratio throttle tubes available, and they do a lot to slow down off-idle throttle opening while maintaining full throttle opening at WOT.

Fuel mapping can be altered by use of piggyback controllers, some of which use wide band Lambda sensors to self-map. The alternative is to alter the fuel map in the original ECU, which is being done with some right now. The Marelli 5AM and 59AM ECUs now can be completely reprogrammed, for instance.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:10 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan from Finland View Post
It gives more control but so does a manual ignition retard lever and placing your hand over the inlet to choke the carburetor and thereby richen the mixture. I prefer to leave those tasks to the ECU in modern bikes.



Fast throttle response is not the same as poor throttle response. One is preferred feature and the other is not.



+1 for that. Except in some cases it's not possibe to correct it without a complete redesign.
Fast throttle response can be the same as twitchy. My Ducati had very fast throttle response, not poor throttle response. Like I said, it took my wife quite a while to get used to it. Her Sportster had poor throttle response. Very poor.

I'm not sure about your point about manual retard ignitions and what it has to do with my using the clutch like a dirt bike. You prefer to leave your clutch up to the ECU? Whatyoutalkin' bout, Willis?
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:25 PM   #25
mrphotoman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
Some of us are able to recognize shitty off-idle transition and surging and are intelligent enough to be able to correct it ourselves. Why make fun of things you obviously can't comprehend?
Hey now do not get a tummy ache just because you can not ride. Go take a few classes, it will pay off in the long run.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:59 AM   #26
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I used to have problems with twitchy throttles, espescially on bikes with over 100 hp. I finally figured it out.

I sold them all and bought a klr and a Kymco People 150. No more twitchy throttles! Just turn the wrist and...eventually...accelerate a little!
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:20 PM   #27
Jan from Finland
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Originally Posted by corndog67 View Post
I'm not sure about your point about manual retard ignitions and what it has to do with my using the clutch like a dirt bike. You prefer to leave your clutch up to the ECU? Whatyoutalkin' bout, Willis?
Well, my point is twofold. Having to compensate poor throttle action with the clutch is outdated. I would prefer to have a glitch free ECU. The other point is a response to you comment "I'm used to it". That was once true also for manual retard ignitions and choking the carburetor. You don't see those anymore in a modern bike? Do you?

I agree with you that using the clutch like a dirt bike works. I do that it if I have to. It's not a solution. Only a mitigation.
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Old 07-13-2013, 05:12 AM   #28
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Sportsguy and I bought the exact same motorcycle last year. The KTM690R. My throttle is particularly sensitive putt putting in the city. I deal with it my short shifting a gear higher immediately with the motor spinning just off idle. I also switched my map to the softest power setting. The throttle is pretty bad when the motor is cold, but smooths out when fully heated.

I don't notice it on dirt unless I'm rolling rock gardens or something, and then I'm using the clutch. I must admit, I'm pretty sloppy with the controls. I'm always snapping the clutch out up or downshifting, causing a lot of my own issues. Doesn't really bother me.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:15 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Pantah View Post
Sportsguy and I bought the exact same motorcycle last year. The KTM690R. My throttle is particularly sensitive putt putting in the city. I deal with it my short shifting a gear higher immediately with the motor spinning just off idle. I also switched my map to the softest power setting. The throttle is pretty bad when the motor is cold, but smooths out when fully heated.

I don't notice it on dirt unless I'm rolling rock gardens or something, and then I'm using the clutch. I must admit, I'm pretty sloppy with the controls. I'm always snapping the clutch out up or downshifting, causing a lot of my own issues. Doesn't really bother me.
Yeah, I've adjusted - and that's served me well on the Tenere now - but I'll admit, the STen can catch me if I'm not smooth rolling on the throttle after a gear change - gets jerky in a hurry.

But again, I know that's me.

What I read time and again are people bashing on the bike/brand and failing to note they moved to this new bike from a 1911 Excelsior so yeah, MAYBE, this will require a change in their OLD habits...

Not really a point of frustration, just saw it enough times to find it amusing how little self-evaluation some people apply to situations like this. ;)
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