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Old 11-21-2013, 02:56 AM   #91
troy safari carpente
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Geebus...

Mudgringo's stat's in the El Dakaro (since the move to Sth Am) look even more impressive when you stack them up against the others like that...

Maybe le deserteur can win solo on a new bike against the KTMaffia and HRC armada?

January f5ever is coming, ready to roll the dice everyone?!
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Old 11-21-2013, 03:39 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troy safari carpente View Post
Geebus...

Mudgringo's stat's in the El Dakaro (since the move to Sth Am) look even more impressive when you stack them up against the others like that...

Maybe le deserteur can win solo on a new bike against the KTMaffia and HRC armada?

January f5ever is coming, ready to roll the dice everyone?!
Only if Coma has a problem and hands it to Despres

Look at ALL of Despres 5 x Dakar wins, they have been when Coma lost the race while leading except 2013 when he didn't start it

2013 - Coma DNS due to injury
2012 - Coma gearbox meltdown Day 13
2010 - Coma unauthorised tyre change penalty time
2007 - Coma crashed dnf due to injury while leading
2005 - Coma 2nd to Despres - Day 10 ran out of petrol

Each of Coma's 3 x Dakar wins were head to head with Despres and Despres came 2nd




Not taking anything away from Despres, awesome rider and competitor, and better than everyone else..............but its always been Marc's to lose since 2005
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:05 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by SafariBerg View Post
Only if Coma has a problem and hands it to Despres

Look at ALL of Despres 5 x Dakar wins, they have been when Coma lost the race while leading except 2013 when he didn't start it

2013 - Coma DNS due to injury
2012 - Coma gearbox meltdown Day 13
2010 - Coma unauthorised tyre change penalty time
2007 - Coma crashed dnf due to injury while leading
2005 - Coma 2nd to Despres - Day 10 ran out of petrol

Each of Coma's 3 x Dakar wins were head to head with Despres and Despres came 2nd

So Cyrils wins werent head to head against Coma? Now thats what i call selective journalism.

Was the leader pushed by the person in second spot? Cyril has dnf'd too in 2002. Put the stats up for eachother.

SInce 2002 they have been head to head against eachother 10 and 6 times CD ended ahead of MC. And MC 4 times.

CyrilComa


Not taking anything away from Despres, awesome rider and competitor, and better than everyone else..............but its always been Marc's to lose since 2005
In your terminology then Marc lost a few when all he had to do was cruise to the finish. Cheating with tires is proof all he had to do was lose. A black page in the history but so be it.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:19 AM   #94
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I got a feeling the young guns are going to do very well this year with one or two of them on the podium. Pain, Bam Bam, Sam....the next wave of potential aliens are full of talent

How many years left do Cyril and Marc have left in them? One...two maybe..Casteu, Pal, Speedy, Verhoveon can't have too many years left either.

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that either Marc or CDP will win this year...
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:27 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Deadly99 View Post
I got a feeling the young guns are going to do very well this year with one or two of them on the podium. Pain, Bam Bam, Sam....the next wave of potential aliens are full of talent

How many years left do Cyril and Marc have left in them? One...two maybe..Casteu, Pal, Speedy, Verhoveon can't have too many years left either.

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that either Marc or CDP will win this year...

Would like to think this is the case Ted, but I think there is one thing for certain and that is that the top places will go to those who make the least "errors" - so in short it will be lost and not won, if you know what I mean?

Now it would be great if that proves not to be the case, but somehow I can't see it
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:43 AM   #96
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Woulda could shoulda... doesn't win you the bedouin's head.

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Would like to think this is the case Ted, but I think there is one thing for certain and that is that the top places will go to those who make the least "errors" - so in short it will be lost and not won, if you know what I mean?

Now it would be great if that proves not to be the case, but somehow I can't see it

BINGO !

It's where you are placed apon crossing the finish line, not how fast you were, or by how much you were leading - prior to reaching it...* that win's Dakar titles.

* I like to call this paradigm "Gordons paradox"

To put some perspective on SafariBerg and Aussie's preceding comments** re the whole Cyril vs Marc thing (**both make some valid points about the two aliens almost decade long battle for moto/rallye supremacy).

So I did the simple thing and merely applied the current F1 poinstcoring system to our two perenial champions dakar results tally (since 2002 - when they both began the head to head bout).

Despres 212
Coma 111.

Now they say that figures don't lie... and while I am not about to intimate that Mudboy's carrer has been (almost) twice as successful as El catalan's, there is one fact that you can't escape when you stack the statistics up; and that is that Cyril has done a much better job over the past decade of balancing and juggling all of the parameters that go into securing a dakar win... NOT just his ample riding talent and navigation abilities (which are - except for Coma - almost without equal during these last five years)...

... but the ENTIRE ballgame - the sponsors, the PR, interpreting the rule book, damage control when shit goes wrong, media, training, food diet and nutrition, recovery from injury and even the selection of ones mechanic, management and support staff.

Yeah, it's fair to say that having a factory team behind you helps (a lot)... but by the same token, there are a number of other riders on that spread sheet a few post back, that have had equally as impressive teams/budgets behind them.... but whose result tally is nothing like that of le deserteur.

Now from all this, one might get the impression that I am a big Cyril f5anboy. Not so. While I do admire the guy's skill, professionalism and charisma when the camera's are on him, I have always felt a greater empathy for Marc's approach and attitude to the whole game. i will qualify this by adding that I have met both individuals, on a multiple of occassions - but concede, that the last of these occassions was several years ago now... so my recent observations (like many here) are based on what the media/press portrays... and a few "insider" tips from friends in the loop.

What is my point (do i have one...? ).

yeah, it's this. Cyril Despres record on Dakar in the moto category is second only to peterhansel (and arguably Neveu's). This is on paper... and the paper does not mean diddly when you are on day 9 of a rally, a scarce 5 minute deficit to your pursuers and some drama happens. The tally of the result sheets tells me that over this decade it has been Cyril D'P's ability to ride, to navigate, to fix trailside mishaps, to protest, to out think his competition, to build the best network around him, to woo the press, to fudge the rulebook, to keep the sponsors happy and to doggedly each day pursue one goal... that being to cross the finish line first... that has acrued him this fantastic list of achievements.

C DP and Coma are STILL the benchmark by which all others must be measured, and to date, nobody has handed the aliens their marching orders... some have come close, some have beaten them by a slim margin on isolated occassion in the past... will 2014 see that change?

Well, to paraphrase too old's last post and counter deadly 99's "new generation" prophecy, I will go on record as saying this:

"Cyril Despres or Marc Coma might not necessarily win Dakar 2014... but whoever finishes in front of either these two on the podium... WILL have...!"
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Old 11-21-2013, 08:04 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troy safari carpente View Post

* I like to call this paradigm "Gordons paradox"


we would have won the stage if only ...
I would have won the dakar only if ....
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Old 11-21-2013, 08:54 AM   #98
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To finish well, one first must finish.!!!

Stats don't lie, Those two have dominated for a long time. Statistically the time for someone else to win should be near. But that's just playing the numbers if all else is equal.

I don't know many people who train like Cyril. Or maybe it's just his PR that let's you follow it. I know in the past he would let his water carriers audition for him, 4-5 days on the bike. Do laps for him, he would study how you entered and exited corners, send them off for medicals so he knew they were as fit as him. I guess Coma is the same, those two are sooooo focused , so detail oriented on every aspect of the game.

Yeah Sam works his proverbial butt off, also visible PR, and his time will come I guess, but can a relative rookie bring it to two guys with 10 years of top level rallying/racing.........well just ask Marc Marquez.

Going fast on a circuit like MM requires immense talent, and a dash of luck. He came off at high speed in what? 5 6 times in the course of ??? 2000 km.

Rallying is not so forgiving.

The young guns will give them a run for their money and will ambush both rally gods at every opportunity. It's gonna be tough and he who ends up winning it will have deserved it 100%. Like every rally.

Can't wait.
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:17 AM   #99
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In my version of Gordon's paradox, Despres didn't get back the time he was stuck in the mud, and Coma wins because he didn't brake the gearbox chasing him.


Anyway, wasn't this race about finishing and camaraderie?
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:30 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troy safari carpente View Post
BINGO !

Yeah, it's fair to say that having a factory team behind you helps (a lot)... but by the same token, there are a number of other riders on that spread sheet a few post back, that have had equally as impressive teams/budgets behind them.... but whose result tally is nothing like that of le deserteur.
Lets not forget the support he gets from the ....French.... organisation as well from time to time.


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we would have won the stage if only ...
I would have won the dakar only if ....
Yeah, and "we lost two hours stuck today, but we should make this up easily enough during the rest of the rally."

He is a bonehead, but I love him regardless, because he breathes spirit and emotion into the rally.
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:16 AM   #101
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we would have won the stage if only ...
I would have won the dakar only if ....
Vick's, you forgot;

"... oh, we'll be back next year with an even better..."


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"...the Barstid never gives you anything for your Sig line, it's always too long........."
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:41 AM   #102
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Who was the last non factory man, real amateur , to win the dakar?

Who was the last amateur to win a stage ?
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:07 PM   #103
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Does anyone know what actually failed on Cyril's bike at the Desafio Inca?
Is it reasonable to assume that Yamaha's factory effort is not quite the juggernaut that is KTM's?
If so, what effect is this likely to have? He must feel that he has a chance to win. Can't quite understand why he jumped ship at this point...
Roll on January!!
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:28 PM   #104
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Does anyone know what actually failed on Cyril's bike at the Desafio Inca?
Is it reasonable to assume that Yamaha's factory effort is not quite the juggernaut that is KTM's?
If so, what effect is this likely to have? He must feel that he has a chance to win. Can't quite understand why he jumped ship at this point...
Roll on January!!

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Old 11-21-2013, 03:04 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie66 View Post
Who was the last non factory man, real amateur , to win the dakar?
?
Neveu 1980 on a private Yamaha

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie66 View Post
Who was the last amateur to win a stage ?
Jonah Street stage 9 in 2011 (by this I mean non-factory / major team rather than non-elite)
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