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Old 08-12-2013, 10:08 PM   #46
nwcycle
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Pretty Pathetic, Anyway to alert the referee ?
Not only winning Sr Expert, But Expert also
Out Beating up the Clubman line........ No wonder he never shows at the podium ??




































































































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01.MasterMatt Stevenson90
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02.ExpertMike Cramsey140
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02.ExpertRon Lee60
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02.ExpertScott Gudgel30









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nwcycle screwed with this post 08-13-2013 at 11:00 PM
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Old 08-16-2013, 08:55 AM   #47
Sting32
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This is exactly the reason some people are pissed about the "clubman" line.

Anyhow, the problem across the country is, the "scuttlebutt" or webforum info passed around, about the CLUBMAN line has alwasy been that it is setup to be hard "intermediate." However, TOOO FREAKING MANY clubs, the NAME "intermediate" is or can be, one full step below what they were talking about when they said INTERMEDIATE... Intermediate is where I am, MANY clubs in the USA, seems to have called that level of difficulty, by a different name!

So, when I rightfully goto nationals to ride clubman, People who's club names these differently, would be pissed as hell at me thinking I rode down, but I didn't.

Guaranteed info here. I rode MY first nationals... in 2010 which was the 1st year of clubman, the 1st event Tishomingo OK. The week before (maybe it was 2 weeks before) I rode MY CLASS (Sr Expert which is just more or less a separate scoring class from regular intermediates for old farts, for MY club, sometimes we have a split for sr, tighter turns but all in all intermediate lines.)

WELL!!! The weekend before the Nationals, for the event known as the SOONER CUP, you needed to know, that the Clubman line was the sections (with modifications, to all of them a little, and some new ones of course) of the exact class that I had won at sooner cup. that is how I know what challenge what class is at the nationals. For reasons Ill explain if asked, I rode sp-40 at nationals, which rode the expert line from the week before, yes there were new sections, and every section they made changes otherwise, but the main POINT is I know what level they are! Exact difficulty in other words.

This is partly because our "national organization" and individual clubs, just wont by golly agree that all clubs should be somewhat compulsory to use same class names, or at the very least class "difficulty" designations with them... CLubs say "we aint changing shit" and memebers that vote at NATC don't want to lose clubs to a stupid argument on the surface.

and really it is about changing the NAME, jesus chrysler, or add a level designation for them, so we all know that skill level 3 is, in other words, what my club calls Intermediate, His club called advanced... "3" being whatever, could be ABC, or 0123, or F1 d2 whatever.

My initial thoughts are like this (since 0 is a clean and best score)

0=Pro
1=Master
2=Expert
3=Intermediate / Sr Expert
4=Amature / Sr Amature
5=Novice / beginners
6 might be kids, dirtbikes, and beginners

SOmeone gave me information of classes for like some club in Washington: The designations work even if they wont rename the classes so we're all "standardized". No other organization calls same level of competition differently across the country@!

6 Beginner
5 Novice
4 intermediate / Sr, intermediate
3 Advanced
2 Expert
1 Champ
0 PRO

Least we all then know what is what...
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Old 08-16-2013, 01:18 PM   #48
Gordy
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...and we wonder why trials is struggling to survive.

FIM and NATC has their collective heads up their asses and should hire a professional consultant/promoter.

Six pros??? Really?? Is that a sport with any creed???
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Old 08-16-2013, 03:23 PM   #49
nwcycle
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I will sign up

I will ride pro class, figure is I score a 180 per day, and ride all 10 events. I might finish 6-7Th overall...
And thats PRO CLASS !!!!!!!!!!
At least no one can blame me for sandbagging !!!!
LOL, Godry you and line are a funny crew !!!!!
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Old 08-16-2013, 08:31 PM   #50
flo10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
This is exactly the reason some people are pissed about the "clubman" line.

Anyhow, the problem across the country is, the "scuttlebutt" or webforum info passed around, about the CLUBMAN line has alwasy been that it is setup to be hard "intermediate." However, TOOO FREAKING MANY clubs, the NAME "intermediate" is or can be, one full step below what they were talking about when they said INTERMEDIATE... Intermediate is where I am, MANY clubs in the USA, seems to have called that level of difficulty, by a different name!

So, when I rightfully goto nationals to ride clubman, People who's club names these differently, would be pissed as hell at me thinking I rode down, but I didn't.

Guaranteed info here. I rode MY first nationals... in 2010 which was the 1st year of clubman, the 1st event Tishomingo OK. The week before (maybe it was 2 weeks before) I rode MY CLASS (Sr Expert which is just more or less a separate scoring class from regular intermediates for old farts, for MY club, sometimes we have a split for sr, tighter turns but all in all intermediate lines.)

WELL!!! The weekend before the Nationals, for the event known as the SOONER CUP, you needed to know, that the Clubman line was the sections (with modifications, to all of them a little, and some new ones of course) of the exact class that I had won at sooner cup. that is how I know what challenge what class is at the nationals. For reasons Ill explain if asked, I rode sp-40 at nationals, which rode the expert line from the week before, yes there were new sections, and every section they made changes otherwise, but the main POINT is I know what level they are! Exact difficulty in other words.

This is partly because our "national organization" and individual clubs, just wont by golly agree that all clubs should be somewhat compulsory to use same class names, or at the very least class "difficulty" designations with them... CLubs say "we aint changing shit" and memebers that vote at NATC don't want to lose clubs to a stupid argument on the surface.

and really it is about changing the NAME, jesus chrysler, or add a level designation for them, so we all know that skill level 3 is, in other words, what my club calls Intermediate, His club called advanced... "3" being whatever, could be ABC, or 0123, or F1 d2 whatever.

My initial thoughts are like this (since 0 is a clean and best score)

0=Pro
1=Master
2=Expert
3=Intermediate / Sr Expert
4=Amature / Sr Amature
5=Novice / beginners
6 might be kids, dirtbikes, and beginners

SOmeone gave me information of classes for like some club in Washington: The designations work even if they wont rename the classes so we're all "standardized". No other organization calls same level of competition differently across the country@!

6 Beginner
5 Novice
4 intermediate / Sr, intermediate
3 Advanced
2 Expert
1 Champ
0 PRO

Least we all then know what is what...
Sting,
You make some good points here. I would be more in favor of keeping class names rather than numbers however. What if a club only has four classes (Novice, Intermediate, Expert and Pro), how would they determine what numbers to apply? I think it would be great if we could at least standardize three classes (Beginner, Intermediate and Expert). The Pro class could be reserved for National Competition only. Then if a club wants to add classes, they can. The number of classes a club has should always be an odd number (3,5 or 7) so the Intermediate class is always in the middle, sense that is what intermediate means--middle. The problem is what to name the classes between Beginner and Intermediate, and between Intermediate and Expert. Here's what I think may work and is somewhat in line with NATC structure:

Beginner
Intermediate
Expert

Beginner
Novice
Intermediate
Sportsman
Expert

Beginner
Novice
Amateur
Intermediate
Clubman
Sportsman
Expert

Now if we could get everyone to use colored gates and limit the number of lines in a section to three, we'll be in business.
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Old 08-16-2013, 08:36 PM   #51
rokhopr
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Location: Owasso, OK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwcycle View Post
Pretty Pathetic, Anyway to alert the referee ?
Not only winning Sr Expert, But Expert also
Out Beating up the Clubman line........ No wonder he never shows at the podium ??




































































































.
01.MasterMatt Stevenson90
3

3030


30





.
01.MasterJason Shackelford30
1






30





.
02.ExpertMike Cramsey140
511302530

2530





.
02.ExpertRon Lee60
2
3030










.
02.ExpertMatt Stevenson60






3030






.
02.ExpertScott Gudgel30









30




.
03.SrExpertMike Cramsey90





3030

30




.
03.SrExpertCharles Martin30
1730











.
03.SrExpertShane Fernandez30
1






30






































































































cramsey here just noticing this interesting discussion of events.

nwcycle, Seek first to understand. People always misread our local club results because they don't know the back story.

Our club has very few riders and less than 5 'afternoon' riders show up at a typical event so to encourage some of 'morning' class riders to move up to intermediate \ afternoon sections without getting beat all the time some of us moved up a 'class'. When I ride 'expert' in our local club events I'm always in last place. If I 'win' it is because I'm the only one in the class. Our last event had 9 riders. Further our "Expert" lines are milder than what we'd see in TX, KS, NM or anywhere else for that matter. In short our afternoon riders ride up a 'class' in name only but the level of difficulty is one line lower than the name would imply. Outside of our local club events I'll ride Sr. Exp which is a slightly more challenging Intermediate line. I have maybe 3 or 4 event wins in the last 6 or 7 years in our regional area.

I tried the support line at NATS two years ago and got my ass kicked. I looked at the scores of guys I ride with that went to the East Coast rounds this year that rode support line and calculated I'd get my ass kicked again. Thus decided to ride Clubman. I didn't come to that decision easily and struggled for several weeks which way to go. But Clubman is an Intermediate line and at the end of the day I'm an Intermediate level rider - sometimes a good one, sometimes not so good but Intermediate none the less.

Any time I get the chance I'll ride at Sipapu. I've ridden events there many times in the past, including 6-8 weeks ago in June, so I know how that place rides thus I had an advantage over others that haven't been there before. The AZ rounds were more typical results where I was 5th and 3rd. If I was trophy hunting I could have ridden SR-55 in AZ and 'won' second, which would also have been last place and I'd have 10 times more points than the winner.

Finally regarding trophy time: I'm not a big sit around the camp fire \ pits and chat kinda guy. I was traveling with my son, who doesn't give a rats ass about riding motorcycles, (blasphemy I know) so when done we headed to Taos for dinner on Saturday. On Sunday had to hit the road to get back to work. Certainly no disrespect meant towards the organizers or competitors but life happens and I've got stuff to do.

That's the story - happy to discuss further if needed. If you need Brad Baumert's email to discuss "sandbagging" further with him let me know and I'll send it to you.
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Old 08-17-2013, 07:08 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokhopr View Post
cramsey here just noticing this interesting discussion of events.

nwcycle, Seek first to understand. People always misread our local club results because they don't know the back story.

Our club has very few riders and less than 5 'afternoon' riders show up at a typical event so to encourage some of 'morning' class riders to move up to intermediate \ afternoon sections without getting beat all the time some of us moved up a 'class'. When I ride 'expert' in our local club events I'm always in last place. If I 'win' it is because I'm the only one in the class. Our last event had 9 riders. Further our "Expert" lines are milder than what we'd see in TX, KS, NM or anywhere else for that matter. In short our afternoon riders ride up a 'class' in name only but the level of difficulty is one line lower than the name would imply. Outside of our local club events I'll ride Sr. Exp which is a slightly more challenging Intermediate line. I have maybe 3 or 4 event wins in the last 6 or 7 years in our regional area.

I tried the support line at NATS two years ago and got my ass kicked. I looked at the scores of guys I ride with that went to the East Coast rounds this year that rode support line and calculated I'd get my ass kicked again. Thus decided to ride Clubman. I didn't come to that decision easily and struggled for several weeks which way to go. But Clubman is an Intermediate line and at the end of the day I'm an Intermediate level rider - sometimes a good one, sometimes not so good but Intermediate none the less.

Any time I get the chance I'll ride at Sipapu. I've ridden events there many times in the past, including 6-8 weeks ago in June, so I know how that place rides thus I had an advantage over others that haven't been there before. The AZ rounds were more typical results where I was 5th and 3rd. If I was trophy hunting I could have ridden SR-55 in AZ and 'won' second, which would also have been last place and I'd have 10 times more points than the winner.

Finally regarding trophy time: I'm not a big sit around the camp fire \ pits and chat kinda guy. I was traveling with my son, who doesn't give a rats ass about riding motorcycles, (blasphemy I know) so when done we headed to Taos for dinner on Saturday. On Sunday had to hit the road to get back to work. Certainly no disrespect meant towards the organizers or competitors but life happens and I've got stuff to do.

That's the story - happy to discuss further if needed. If you need Brad Baumert's email to discuss "sandbagging" further with him let me know and I'll send it to you.


Looking forward to riding with you again at Sipapu next June Mike!
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:02 AM   #53
joeclark974
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No one should ever be expected to ride outside thier comfort level.We are all riding for fun.Lets keep it fun.We all have lives outside of trials.For me the compitition is me against the terrain,not the other riders.I have helped and been helped by riders in my class.We often walk and discuss the sections together.Thats what makes trials special to me.
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:22 PM   #54
Sting32
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Sorry it took me so long to reply I got busy. The problem is solveable by the Nationals and the people that are in those, have been to most of the club or we have riders that ride different states and stuff like that, that's how the decision will be whether not you're novice the equals our novice?? Sound fair?.

Any other way of doing it other than people who travel might be able to help your club figure it out, or you may have to guess at it.

but the main thing is, it's sad to hear people that are just one step above novice thinking they're being beaten by another person that just graduated novice, when realistically they're competing against former experts or damn near experts because we don't name our Club classes the same way.

? Then it'd be nice if nationals used similiar structure sometime, since the more that show up the better? AND I think more show up if it doesn't seem unrealistic to ride against your peers instead of better by longshot than you, me or whoever hoped to ride against.

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Old 08-18-2013, 02:39 PM   #55
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flo10 View Post
Sting,
You make some good points here. I would be more in favor of keeping class names rather than numbers however. What if a club only has four classes (Novice, Intermediate, Expert and Pro), how would they determine what numbers to apply? I think it would be great if we could at least standardize three classes (Beginner, Intermediate and Expert). The Pro class could be reserved for National Competition only. Then if a club wants to add classes, they can. The number of classes a club has should always be an odd number (3,5 or 7) so the Intermediate class is always in the middle, sense that is what intermediate means--middle. The problem is what to name the classes between Beginner and Intermediate, and between Intermediate and Expert. Here's what I think may work and is somewhat in line with NATC structure:

Beginner
Intermediate
Expert

Beginner
Novice
Intermediate
Sportsman
Expert

Beginner
Novice
Amateur
Intermediate
Clubman
Sportsman
Expert

Now if we could get everyone to use colored gates and limit the number of lines in a section to three, we'll be in business.
I replied to this one above but I want to add more. I don't care if you only have one class... we're going to have to figure out what level that class i, be it a2 for expert (in mylist 0to6) or 3 for clubman/intermediate/sr expert.

Adding the number before the class could simply be on the website... so you would look great your classes 0 through 6 on your website only or maybe on your sign up sheets... that way a rider comes to California, wants to enter his own class at your club he has a clue that "what do you sign up for?" listen we have results based on well I'm in expert I'm rode in expert or whatever "Aquarius" claas it was called. That's all the 0123 is about... don't have to show anywhere else. With my plan or thought.

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Old 08-19-2013, 03:52 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by NMTrailboss View Post


Looking forward to riding with you again at Sipapu next June Mike!
Sipapu is my favorite place to ride and now that some other guys from our club have been there I expect there will be more of us Okies next year. Beyond the event site, NMTA riders are a great group to ride with. Thanks.
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Old 08-19-2013, 04:10 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
... "Aquarius" class it was called....


Regardless of class names, which are subjective, a more objective approach is needed. Borrowing something from the Utah club a year or two ago I started a more objective \ measurable approach to section building for our club so that guys had some sort of guideline for building sections http://www.neott.com/sectionsetting.htm so that rather than having someone's opinion determine what is too easy or too hard we have something to go by.

Another approach that I've thought about but haven't completely built out is a skills\techniques to class matrix. That gets a little tricky because I've ridden with guys that can splatter big walls but can't turn for nothing so where do you put them on the matrix...? Anyway that is another thing on my to-do list...
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:20 AM   #58
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokhopr View Post


Regardless of class names, which are subjective, a more objective approach is needed. Borrowing something from the Utah club a year or two ago I started a more objective \ measurable approach to section building for our club so that guys had some sort of guideline for building sections http://www.neott.com/sectionsetting.htm so that rather than having someone's opinion determine what is too easy or too hard we have something to go by.

Another approach that I've thought about but haven't completely built out is a skills\techniques to class matrix. That gets a little tricky because I've ridden with guys that can splatter big walls but can't turn for nothing so where do you put them on the matrix...? Anyway that is another thing on my to-do list...

No, no no no! The names might be subjective, just because clubs or "controlling boards" have not decided that it would be the greater good of TRIALS in general to "standardize" this stuff. We have people that travel, I do NOT believe central usa is that unique... We even have "staff" if nothing else that travel, just NATC for nationals "referees" they know what looks like a duck quacks like a duck, is a duck.

So far though, what I am talking about, if you will look at your LONG explanation post above, as an example... Where you say your "expert" class is not really expert anymore. fine call it expert, but give it the "level," then, on website and or signup sheets or resutls, and all that... this way NWCYCLE isn't all over your ass for Cherry Picking, but more importantly, we dont have 20 AMATURE level guys all pissed because they think they had a shot at clubman and are pissed when a "clubman" level rider showed up!

I for one dont necessarily want to change the world, and start calling expert the "2 line" or whatever but some clubs dont have even a class called Master, and some have "pro riders" that ride a class called "champ" which again is hard to tell what the line difficulty really is. And like I said earlier about the club up in the northwest called their amature class Intermediate, so did NMTA, the intermediate was what my dad rides in Kansas as Sr Amature...

All about this class names being unique across the country instead of being the same, this is pretty much ridiculous in today's age. The PEE WEE world series doesn't have some people that are college aged, semi pro, nor old fart beer league. Yet this is exactly what has been left in place for trials clubs across the USA... then like I said before, when you enter or read results, you think "ok, intermediate which around here is just under expert, but Joe in Florida knows that all he knows is, intermediate is just above novice, and now everyone is at odds with who entered what class.

NOw watch, they'll just get rid of clubman, instead of figuring this all out, to save the perception of arguing. I call it a debate, I guess I wont ever really care if you (not just you mike, but all who read MY posts on this subject) like my thoughts, but I put it out there so maybe others might agree or disagree, but someday something might be done. We all can see the problem, I added why I think the problem is such a problem...

Hell, last thought quick... What if nothing else NATC has a list of what the class (main classes, not just the Senior add ons) listed somewhere, this way when the say "intermediate" level, you look up on that site, see where intermediate falls on the list? this way when Jerry Blow, looks and sees intermediate is just below expert instead of just above novicce, maybe he'll influence his club to not make the class names so far off from the norm, and I am not saying my club has it right neither, maybe, depends on how the NATC (our figurehead authority at least) calls the shots.

Lets say they make a list ranking the classes at the friggin nationals at least...

NATC-------------------------------------AVTA
PRO .................................................. ...PRO
EXPERT & expert 125?.............................MASTER
Expert SPortsman & HighSchool? ........... (none)
Sportsman & Junior ................................(none)
Support ................................................ Expert
Clubman ................................................ Intermediate
(none) .................................................. . Amature
(none) .................................................. Novice
(NONE) ................................................. Beginner/dirtbike/cadet

I don't know for sure which class is what though, But I think those are the basic classes hard to easy. Im guessin at the "&" classes as far as what line difficulty they rode? Im putting AVTA's classes I ranked earlier in the thread, along side this list, so then am I even close? I dont know. they have more classes between pro and expert than our club has total, Obviously.

I dunno, what say you all?

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Old 08-20-2013, 08:25 AM   #59
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Our top class is more equal to expert.
Our Master class to expert sportsman.
Our Experts are able to make sportsman an easy line.
Semi = clubman pretty close.
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:34 AM   #60
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The Clubman lines (that I saw) at the Sipapu National was more like our Sportsman line and at one of the sections that we scored it was even more like an easy Intermediate. Go figure.

The Support lines that I saw were more like our easy Semi-EX. The EX lines were like our EX.

You really shouldn't need a decoder ring to figure all of this out.
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