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Old 08-20-2013, 09:54 AM   #61
lineaway
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Wow, Gordy both days on my sections Sammy and Nathan worked hard in the Expert lines! And only the ex-sports were cleaning the sportsman line. Cramsey was the only clubman Sunday to have a clean! (which was once)
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:31 AM   #62
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Wow, Gordy both days on my sections Sammy and Nathan worked hard in the Expert lines! And only the ex-sports were cleaning the sportsman line. Cramsey was the only clubman Sunday to have a clean! (which was once)
Like I said, from what I saw.
I never punched so many cleans evar, but the day-end scores showed that they were getting point somewhere!
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:04 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
Like I said, from what I saw.
I never punched so many cleans evar, but the day-end scores showed that they were getting point somewhere!
Gordy! Nice that you added some anecdotal information, you can't just judge the event by your section, lol. I really liked the post above that where Lineaway tried to say what class he thought NMTA equals what, do you concur?

Lineaway, don't be lazy, draw you clubs classes up just like I did mine, in a list form, so I can see what you mean. I think you would see that even me, after 40+ years riding, it is hard to tell what is what!!! This is where NMTA might be in better position to figure out class difficulty, compared to maybe tiny clubs somewhere else, that never hosted a nationals, or have riders that attend them.

You (lineaway) have rode many nationals I think, and you probably are just like I said, "Riders from you club that travel, and can at least see what class seems to be what" when you do travel. I know when I travel, I at least get to see morning and afternoons, because I "minder" my dad in mornings, who usually rides slightly harder than amature lines in our club, called Sr Amatuer. I NEVER get to see what he rides at home, but the 2.5 hour drives home, he gives me a pretty detailed report on what happened to him in the sections.

But when it comes to Expert and master, I still see wild differences sometimes from club to club, and HONESTLY up above EXPERT that probably doesn't matter at all??? Because ALL CLUBS tend to cater a little, to the riders in the class. I can recall a couple years back where our novice class was probably harder than most ANy novice class in the USA, as we had 2 HOT riders contending, and we setup sections to take points from those 2, which turned out to be the wrong thing to do, if classes are too easy they should just move up, but nobody wants to "not win" the year's ranking of #1 in your class that year...

Plus, I know when my friend Allen Guyot, yes from Ute Cup fame, joined us in the Sr Expert class, our class (and to some degree intermediate as well) got a bit "more difficult" at least with harder turns that lead to tough things to get over. IT has kind of stayed there. BUT At the time, the tougher "objects" he kind of forced onto us (he was club prez, and he setup MANY many many sections each month, since he lived across the street from the club grounds you know). I'm saying that we would have felt better (at the time) to have a nice straight shot at just most of his new obstacles, and during the 1st loop march, you would hear if the "sob's that set this up had a clue... This is ridiculous" if you know what I'm laughing about, you just know what I am talking about.

Magnify that 1000 times, when I headed to ride SP-40, or these other guys that were "amature" (AKA 4) riders, walked the clubman lines
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:05 AM   #64
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I was not being lazy or wrong.
Look at our rider results.
Nathan and Sam were 2 and 3rd in expert and they ride our champ class.
Rachel rode expert sportsman lines and rides Master at NMTA.
Randy Gibson was third in JR. He won his last expert ride at Sipapu!
Matt Web had 70 pts in sr40 and is a top Semi- Expert rider.
Our guys that rode clubman (all middle of the pack) ride sportsman.
And remember this was all with a home advantage, Nationals away at areas never ridden before are usually much harder!

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Old 08-22-2013, 09:36 AM   #65
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Like I said, from what I saw.
I never punched so many cleans evar, but the day-end scores showed that they were getting point somewhere!
My section got Rachel for 9pts out of both days and she rode the sportsman line in my section. She probably could not get through the expert line at all even without the time limit. So the degree of difficulty section to section was quite a step.
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:21 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
http://advrider.com/forums/showpost....4&postcount=59
I was not being lazy or wrong.
Look at our rider results.
Nathan and Sam were 2 and 3rd in expert and they ride our champ class.
Rachel rode expert sportsman lines and rides Master at NMTA.
Randy Gibson was third in JR. He won his last expert ride at Sipapu!
Matt Web had 70 pts in sr40 and is a top Semi- Expert rider.
Our guys that rode clubman (all middle of the pack) ride sportsman.
And remember this was all with a home advantage, Nationals away at areas never ridden before are usually much harder!
Didn't mean it that way Line, I just would have to "llook up" all you classes then determine where they go, that is all. figured you had all that in your head. Didn't have an opinion if you were wrong either. (im editing this post hang on)

this is what I had tried to point out, your "Matt Web" damn good rider in me and MIKES class which is "clubman" he actually rode UP a class, and this is technically not "fair" yet to those who dont understand the class structures, and the nuances of entering the nationals to see where you end up points wise on same line maybe your 50 year old buddies ride, and maybe your 30+ year old buddy rides (sr35 and Sr50) like I did in 2010) then those who try to gain an 'insight' to who should enter what class, is a total mystery, and such cause NWCYCLE to just post after post mad at Cramsey, and wanted to call in "referee" because of unknown section difficulty per class you can enter at the nationals. I felt NWCYCLE felt that his AMATURE buddies should have won the clubman class, and at least podiumed and then did what I would have done!!! I said and complained the same way sort of, by more or less boycotting the nationals, for all the reasons I have described over several posts... I was competitng in the easier "nationals" lines, support/age, against experts from other states, where expert is a lot higher than expert around here (when the only class listed above it, was champ or Pro class...)

So if it botheres me, bothers others, then I can see why the thing needs more explaining, and some FIXING! I mean yeah sure some of you TOP riders are getting old, and when they all get to where even the nationals is too much to go do, it will probably die. I think, you all right now, feel that it is like a "club" and everyone before now had to be initiated? else the whole "nationals" loses what it was? But IMHO the Nationals will die a quick death sooner than later, if we cannot make some changes to where the COMPETITION that we can have, is worth the "costs" and time. Nationals needs probably 60 riders to even be worth hosting, dont you think? and that is at a hosting club, and base on a club where more than 10 club members will do any work other than scoring... Just like anything else, make it so everyone wants to go (just like utecup has been my bucket list for ever, why? because different type of competition I "think" that it is) IMHO, eventually spirit of "good competition" will make people want to be there. Sadly as far as I hear it is now, it is like being a member of some club, or a "sorority" and those that belong seem to go, otherwise the rest of those that would go, don't really give a dang, see it as some wierd cult because it cannot be for seeing who is the best at "X" level of competition, X meaning Master, expert, intermediate. We know Pro is good, may the best man win at the hardest levels. But I know I should NOT drop names, but MATT's best rider (Jason Carpenter) tried the class below pro one year, that they didn't ride more than 4 or 5 sections in reality, they were way to friggin hard for anyone...

Again, EXPERT for nationals should be called "SEMI-PRO" as in the class for those that occasionally ride PRO or USED to?" as in Phil Smage, and those that can ride that high stuff, I dunno Im throwing thoughts out there, hoping for feedback...

ex sportsman seems to be the "master line" when equivalent to 1, in my rankings.
sportsman is expert? then what is support? this is why it is so "delusional" or muddy and unclear to those that start riding trials, in the past few years at least, and get pretty good and think, hey Ill try a nationals, then get asses whipped, sent home to never return possibly? I mean yeah, I see lots of people give up when it seems unfair or just as bad when it seems like sandbaggin. you dont see motocross doing this type of thing, you have brackets where everyone can get a feeling and have a chance of who they should be able to beat or compete with. I just dont get that with the nationals.

Ok, if I have it all backwards then? if so we need some education, lol. I and many others then don't get why you goto these then, it isn't like you have time to watch the pro's ride if you compete, so what is it then?

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Old 08-22-2013, 11:51 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
My section got Rachel for 9pts out of both days and she rode the sportsman line in my section. She probably could not get through the expert line at all even without the time limit. So the degree of difficulty section to section was quite a step.
Agreed, like I said, they were getting points somewhere, I just didn't see them.

Sat section 3, EX;
7 pts all day from 8 riders (and one guy got a 3) so basically 4-5 points/8 riders=EASY

That was a Support=EX section and Rachel got 8 points there and she struggled.


Sunday section 2, EX;
8 riders and not a single point all day.
Also a Support=EX
Womens Ex Caroline cleaned the section and Rachel got 3 points.

Clubman had 3 points all day from 10 riders. 30 trips through the section and 3 points!! What's the point of that?
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:38 PM   #68
lineaway
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I`m sure Greg threw in some easy sections in case it rained. Both days I had a hard section.(#10) We punched every class mainly 3`s. Sunday Nathan was best Expert with 6!
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Old 08-22-2013, 03:24 PM   #69
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NM, Expert


Points taken per section for all riders...
------------------------------------------


Saturday:

Section 1 - 17
Section 2 - 32
Section 3 - 7-Gordy scoring
Section 4 - 38
Section 5 - 104
Section 6 - 71
Section 7 - 70
Section 8 - 74
Section 9 - 42
Section 10 - 81
Section 11 - 46
Section 12 - 55



Sunday:

Points taken per section for all riders...
------------------------------------------
Section 1 - 26
Section 2 - 0- Gordy scoring
Section 3 - 25
Section 4 - 52
Section 5 - 22
Section 6 - 23
Section 7 - 43
Section 8 - 29
Section 9 - 20
Section 10 - 67
Section 11 - 13
Section 12 - 25

Maybe we just weren't paying attention and didn't see the dabs!

Clubman totals in our sections was just about as low.
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Old 08-22-2013, 05:03 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
NM, Expert


Points taken per section for all riders...
------------------------------------------

Sunday:

Points taken per section for all riders...
------------------------------------------
Section 1 - 26
Section 2 - 0- Gordy scoring
Section 3 - 25
Section 4 - 52
Section 5 - 22
Section 6 - 23
Section 7 - 43
Section 8 - 29
Section 9 - 20
Section 10 - 67
Section 11 - 13 NMTrailboss scoring
Section 12 - 25
Wow! I didn't think anyone had an easier section for Expert than we did. We only had a few points in Expert for the day and 5 of those were Nathan riding through a Clubman gate! We only punched one point for all Pro's in section 11.
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Old 08-22-2013, 05:30 PM   #71
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Well ,I can say I had the toughest sections overall for the weekend. Which I`m glad because it made it interesting, especially Sunday as the Experts and Pro`s had to race through the second half of the section to finish in time!
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:10 PM   #72
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Well.
Whoop-de-frikkin-do for you!


This is what I did on Sunday.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:10 PM   #73
lineaway
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Didn't mean it that way Line, I just would have to "llook up" all you classes then determine where they go, that is all. figured you had all that in your head. Didn't have an opinion if you were wrong either. (im editing this post hang on)


Ok, if I have it all backwards then? if so we need some education, lol. I and many others then don't get why you goto these then, it isn't like you have time to watch the pro's ride if you compete, so what is it then?
`We go, because they are the nationals` Some have gone for most of their lives. Some have bitter rivalries amongst old friends. The sections are kinda like a crapshoot. Some times way too hard, sometimes easy for all so very hard mentally. I`ve enjoyed more than I`ve hated. First one I ever went to Cayuta, Ny 1975 was a disaster as most people timed out. Lots of them have had sections never ridden, or extremely bad weather. Snow in southern California, Flooding in Texas, Extreme humidity in Illinois.
Worst yet would be bad scores , scoring or lack of rule knowledge. Went to New York. I was the only one too clean a hard muddy section. Everyone was five `n it. In the middle of celebration I missed the punch. Turned my card in and the bored scorer had punched me a five like everyone else. I lost it mentally after that, and it cost me a national championship. (Karma, I was sand bagging that year! 2001 sportsman instead of my age group.)
Just had to throw that in. So I sandbagged in 2001 and wet to expert -sportsman in 2002. Never placed, but was riding my best ever.
Just ask Jason, he`s ridden many a national too! But with the economy, gas prices, and lower rider numbers something needs to change!
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Old 08-23-2013, 08:33 AM   #74
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`We go, because they are the nationals` Some have gone for most of their lives. Some have bitter rivalries amongst old friends. The sections are kinda like a crapshoot. Some times way too hard, sometimes easy for all so very hard mentally. I`ve enjoyed more than I`ve hated. First one I ever went to Cayuta, Ny 1975 was a disaster as most people timed out. Lots of them have had sections never ridden, or extremely bad weather. Snow in southern California, Flooding in Texas, Extreme humidity in Illinois.
Worst yet would be bad scores , scoring or lack of rule knowledge. Went to New York. I was the only one too clean a hard muddy section. Everyone was five `n it. In the middle of celebration I missed the punch. Turned my card in and the bored scorer had punched me a five like everyone else. I lost it mentally after that, and it cost me a national championship. (Karma, I was sand bagging that year! 2001 sportsman instead of my age group.)

Just had to throw that in. So I sandbagged in 2001 and wet to expert -sportsman in 2002. Never placed, but was riding my best ever.

Just ask Jason, he`s ridden many a national too! But with the economy, gas prices, and lower rider numbers something needs to change!
Everything you said above about it, I wanted, and yeah meeting Brewtus the first time, made friends and all that... and it wasn't as bad as when a person has to type stuff out, but it wasn't good enough to overcome economics though IMHO.

That is what I would like to figure out what needs to be changed, and sadly I think I can speak for many, then you write something (above) that blows my mind.

I believe competition and rivalry drives any sport. The class structure of the nationals still stump-i-fies me, all I can say when I look at it is, "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot" can we do to fix it IF we COULD fix it.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:32 AM   #75
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I believe competition and rivalry drives any sport. The class structure of the nationals still stump-i-fies me, all I can say when I look at it is, "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot" can we do to fix it IF we COULD fix it.
The sections I observed both days at Sipapu, the Clubman lines looked about like NMTA Sportsman/Semi-EX stuff, especially Saturday on 8 when the logs got wet.

The Sunday section (7?) had a massive rock face up for all but CM that got silty and slippery early. It was carnage for all but the most aggressive Support and above riders. A significant number of Support riders punched through.

I was able to explain the various lines (colored gates for colored plates - OK)to non-trials spectators at our sections. I wouldn't even attempt to explain the class structure. There are too many classes and not enough competitors, and it's been like that for as long as I've been attending Nationals even before the economic crunch hit the sport.

Sooner or later IMHO it'll have to morph to an East coast/West coast division thing with an end of year shootout, a la AMA MX lites series.
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