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Old 08-23-2013, 11:13 AM   #76
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridenm View Post
The sections I observed both days at Sipapu, the Clubman lines looked about like NMTA Sportsman/Semi-EX stuff, especially Saturday on 8 when the logs got wet.

The Sunday section (7?) had a massive rock face up for all but CM that got silty and slippery early. It was carnage for all but the most aggressive Support and above riders. A significant number of Support riders punched through.

I was able to explain the various lines (colored gates for colored plates - OK)to non-trials spectators at our sections. I wouldn't even attempt to explain the class structure. There are too many classes and not enough competitors, and it's been like that for as long as I've been attending Nationals even before the economic crunch hit the sport.

Sooner or later IMHO it'll have to morph to an East coast/West coast division thing with an end of year shootout, a la AMA MX lites series.
Our midwest clubs do the gate colored things now, per NATC markings pretty much. black is hardest lines, red next lower, green for old farts (senior), and blue for lowest line.

sadly Sr has to (saves the 2000 splits markers all over) blue unless there is a green (a senior split). works fine. Sure as hell a lot better than paper plates with scribbled Sharpies that do look like a tornado through a picnic area at times. once you get the hang of setting it up that way, it is actually easier to setup. One complaint always happens though... you are on section 7, clear in the back of the loop/property, and you ran out of RED markers.

We use white tape for both sides now, and a nicer entry sign, usually signed by the worker(s) that setup the section. double tape on both sides of the exit gate(s) helps you find exit when for "main" exit, for sections that might have a junior or novice only exit, that of course has to be clearly marked with a sign.

The 2nd biggest thing is to somewhat "standardize" best as you can, where the split marker must be. I have ridden a trials where some ahole, put the split marker for ONE CLASS, up on a tree about 7ft off the ground when walking, yet the 3 other markers saying go around the tree on the other side, right there at 3ft above the ground... all you can do is ask yourself, WTF were they thinking, while they punch your 5 which can ruin your day, know what i mean?
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:00 PM   #77
lineaway
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Speaking of `standardized` our club started with three classes. Novice, semi-expert and expert. Through the years we have dropped the semi in name only at least three times. Some how the class name always creeps back! So all these odd clubs with different class structures will never agree to be the same!
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:39 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
The Clubman lines (that I saw) at the Sipapu National was more like our Sportsman line and at one of the sections that we scored it was even more like an easy Intermediate. Go figure.

The Support lines that I saw were more like our easy Semi-EX. The EX lines were like our EX.

You really shouldn't need a decoder ring to figure all of this out.
It happens all the time Bob. Our club was recently discussing reshuffling all the class names. In the end we did nothing which was a good thing. A few years ago Northern and Southern California aligned their classes. Since then No Cal has kept the original classes and we have made several changes. Now we no longer match up. People just can't help messing with it.

I agree that having standard names and difficulty levels would be a big step forward BUT it would have to be voluntary. NATC could SUGGEST a format and if clubs agree then each club could adopt it as they see fit. NATC has no power to force clubs to do anything. It's like States rights VS Federal law.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:22 PM   #79
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowPSI View Post
It happens all the time Bob. Our club was recently discussing reshuffling all the class names. In the end we did nothing which was a good thing. A few years ago Northern and Southern California aligned their classes. Since then No Cal has kept the original classes and we have made several changes. Now we no longer match up. People just can't help messing with it.

I agree that having standard names and difficulty levels would be a big step forward BUT it would have to be voluntary. NATC could SUGGEST a format and if clubs agree then each club could adopt it as they see fit. NATC has no power to force clubs to do anything. It's like States rights VS Federal law.
It is NOT a good thing, if you aren't going to shuffle your class names to reflect what other clubs around the country are calling their classes though, so yeah probably technically good thing your club didn't waste the time and energy, if you were going to end up with a list that is like Pro-Novice-Powderpuff, et al. That is the problem, clubs aren't even given guidelines, and or clubs do NOT wish to follow guidelines, I dont know which?

I think NATC's job in part is to standardize this crap, it is ridiculous (although very doable, don't get me wrong) for me to travel to California and have no f'ing clue what class I should ride at your event, and I can say maybe our club has to change, Im not saying we're the only ones doing it right by any stretch of the imagination)... It is the very essence of NOT THINKING it THROUGH, stops so many.

I talked to NWCYCLE through pm, I know he had valid points on web searches and on "paper" yet I believe the situation is NOT unique, and again half the problem is nobody is sure what line clubman is equal to in their club, if they don't already have the same structures we do, it is confusing as hell, and we need like Gordy said, a DECODER RING.

No other "national" sanctioned sport in the friggin world (except PRO Baseball) has different RULES or exceptions (talking about the pinch hitter things NL vs AL leagues, least every team in that league is the same)! Jesus Chrysler.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:04 AM   #80
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Interesting method used by our neighbors to the north to get more country wide participation. Not sure it works - just thought it was kinda cool.
http://www.trialscanada.com/champion...heights_en.pdf
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:27 AM   #81
nwcycle
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All they have to do is read the rule book !!!!

Copied from the NATC Rulebook

2013 AMA/NATC
SUPPLEMENTAL RIDING RULES
Rev: 12/4/2012 4:01 PM
Page 2 of 14
1. RIDER REQUIREMENTS
A. Rider Qualifications:
1. Riders must be 10 years of age or older and of advanc
ed or expert caliber, riders of lesser skill shall ride
only the clubman class, novice or beginner riders shall not enter.

Hmm see where I have a beef with that ?????

2013 AMA/NATC
SUPPLEMENTAL RIDING RULES
Rev: 12/4/2012 4:01 PM
Page 2 of 14
1. RIDER REQUIREMENTS


1. Series championships are open to all classe
s. See Sections 8 & 9 for requirements.
2. The Pro Class is the most prestigious class in which to compete
3. The Expert classes are a transition between the
Pro Class and the Support Classes. The 125-cc Expert
Class is open to riders of ability suitable for ri
ding the Expert line and 10-18-years of age on January 1
st
, of
the current year.
4. The Expert Sportsman and Women’s Expert Sports
man classes are designed to be additional transition
classes. Support class sections are considered too eas
y for these riders. Without creating any new lines,
these riders will compete on the hardest of the support se
ctions and the easiest of the Expert sections as
determined by the Trialsmaster and Sporting Steward.
5. The High School Class is an Expert Spor
tsman Class that is open to any rider 10
-
18 years of age on
January
1st of the current year.
6. The Junior Class
is a support class open to any rider 10-18 years of age on January 1
st
of the current
year.
7. The Sportsman Class is a support class designed
to provide a transition for riders between local and
national competition.
( Or in lame-mans term, any one that usually rides a advanced
OR HIGHER CLASS !!!!! ) I.E. What I stated in the first place !!!!


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Old 08-28-2013, 12:29 PM   #82
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwcycle View Post
Copied from the NATC Rulebook

2013 AMA/NATC
SUPPLEMENTAL RIDING RULES
Rev: 12/4/2012 4:01 PM
Page 2 of 14
1. RIDER REQUIREMENTS
A. Rider Qualifications:
1. Riders must be 10 years of age or older and of advanc
ed or expert caliber, riders of lesser skill shall ride
only the clubman class, novice or beginner riders shall not enter.

Hmm see where I have a beef with that ?????

2013 AMA/NATC
SUPPLEMENTAL RIDING RULES
Rev: 12/4/2012 4:01 PM
Page 2 of 14
1. RIDER REQUIREMENTS


1. Series championships are open to all classe
s. See Sections 8 & 9 for requirements.
2. The Pro Class is the most prestigious class in which to compete
3. The Expert classes are a transition between the
Pro Class and the Support Classes. The 125-cc Expert
Class is open to riders of ability suitable for ri
ding the Expert line and 10-18-years of age on January 1
st
, of
the current year.
4. The Expert Sportsman and Women’s Expert Sports
man classes are designed to be additional transition
classes. Support class sections are considered too eas
y for these riders. Without creating any new lines,
these riders will compete on the hardest of the support se
ctions and the easiest of the Expert sections as
determined by the Trialsmaster and Sporting Steward.
5. The High School Class is an Expert Spor
tsman Class that is open to any rider 10
-
18 years of age on
January
1st of the current year.
6. The Junior Class
is a support class open to any rider 10-18 years of age on January 1
st
of the current
year.
7. The Sportsman Class is a support class designed
to provide a transition for riders between local and
national competition.
( Or in lame-mans term, any one that usually rides a advanced
OR HIGHER CLASS !!!!! ) I.E. What I stated in the first place !!!!


Problem is rules, as you read them *today* were written 13 years apart and fail to express*litterally* what we know to be true. Yes, nationals not open to *all riders* the *amendment*added for clubman doesnt superceed that rule. Support used to be hard intermediate an expert sections. Then came clubman. They made support expert lines, harder not easier like before.

That is where even I am agreeing with most everything you said except where your *amature* level friends could or should have had any *hope* to even place in a class one higher than they normally would ride, let alone a*national* event that all years passed where freaking hard as hell to even navigate the loop at below expert experience and skills!!! I know you complained to self because Cramsey apears to be expert rider!

My WHOLE POINT IN THIS DISCUSSION WAS: THAT HE ISNT AN EXPERT RIDER.

AND THEN If I HAD GONE, AND HAD GOOD DAY, ID BEAT HIM MOST OF EVERY TRIALS WE'VE EVER ENTERED. SO I TRIED TO TELL YOU AND YOUR BUDDYS, THAT THEY PROBABLY CONFUSED WHAT LEVEL RIDERS CLUBMAN WAS SETUP FOR? Asuming nobody from intermediate ability/classes across the usa SHO W S UP, then maybe amatures would win and podium by default.

THAT is what needs fixed and it has to be fixed at clubs *names* and natc rules, a little of both!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Old 08-28-2013, 01:59 PM   #83
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:14 PM   #84
nwcycle
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Well..............

Hope someone can explain this to the young Roper boy,
Someone who actually belonged in that class, and had the stones to move up to the sportsman line, and I am willing to bet, that most of the guys who sandbagged that clubman line have been riding at at least adv/exp level longer than the young boy has been on earth....
But we can argue this all year and beyond, those who know ..... know what really is going on.....
Sad............really Sad

And also, the clubman line did not exist 13 yrs ago.....
and if anyone can figure to video themselves and post on you tube, well they can simply read rules cant they?
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:25 PM   #85
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just had to try this.....


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Old 08-28-2013, 03:01 PM   #86
lineaway
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Our local transplant to Colorado`s club, Chris Hertrich`s son Micah also moved up at the same time. Both fathers are pushing the boys to be the next generation of Pro riders!
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:01 PM   #87
nwcycle
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I agree

That young guy will be awesome, I had spoke with Chris several times complimenting what a great job Micah does, and I am more impressed how Micah actually listens to his dad when riding,
They will be an awesome new group of riders.....
Thx for bringing that up Line.....
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:54 AM   #88
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwcycle View Post
Hope someone can explain this to the young Roper boy,
Someone who actually belonged in that class, and had the stones to move up to the sportsman line, and I am willing to bet, that most of the guys who sandbagged that clubman line have been riding at at least adv/exp level longer than the young boy has been on earth....
But we can argue this all year and beyond, those who know ..... know what really is going on.....
Sad............really Sad

And also, the clubman line did not exist 13 yrs ago.....
and if anyone can figure to video themselves and post on you tube, well they can simply read rules cant they?
What rule? That is sort of the rub/problem. Sorry nwcycle, in the conversations I have posted I was not using your *name in vain* merely talking point I hope you know that. And sorry I misunderstood when you or not you mentioned class names for club in somewhere. But this *IS* some of the problem I'm speaking up about here, there is a history so to speak, 4 main classes (before pro & CLUBMAN). All for expert or higher difficulty lines, for in usa is only 2 difficulty classes in 99% of the clubs. Then added the new next lower class (clubman) which is **in your own words/definition is advanced**, aka afternoon or **upper class**.

I can't iterate enough that the merit of your complaint ^on paper^ is valid as hell, only to where I've at least tried to make you see he could call the class he rode at home club *professional* (since natc has no guidlines nor standards we adhere to) yet 134 riders in the immediate area know his *professional* class is at intermediate section difficulty! !!

Again. My point is 2 sided. I rode support-age (lowest class befor CM) againt *expert* where some clubs exper is higher than *master* a whole class up on difficulty scale?

Is this so hard for everyone to see? It seems easy. I don't ever see college teams competing in the superbowl; do you? Should we? If it was ran like this maybe minneapolis high school team should enter the *SUPER BOWL* playoffs, and dare hope they had a chance to win it all? 2 things though, prety unfair competition, and unrealistic expectations if high school coach got fired when they got beat in game 1 every friggin year, don't ya think?

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Sting32 screwed with this post 08-29-2013 at 08:59 AM
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Old 08-30-2013, 04:29 PM   #89
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I'm smart enough to know what I'm able to do and not do safely. One back surgery is all I ever want to have. My one foray into support class 2 years ago resulted in several trips over the bars, a DNF, a tweaked back, a DNS, punching out of probably 2 sections per loop - not the best of times so I'm not real in a real big hurry to go there again. At 55 and pretty beat up my risk \ reward matrix is pretty narrow.

Point is I rode support, it didn't work out so I stepped back and was glad to be riding in the shadows of the future stars of the sport. After a couple of events they elected to move on so somehow I'm left as the bad guy in this deal???

Duluth Saturday was very close and could have easily gone to any of the top 3 riders and we were all beat by a guy on a 30 year old twin shock. The guy in third had a fluke 5 on section 1, if not for that he would have won.

At the end of the day I'm an intermediate level rider, sometimes a good one, sometimes not so good. I'll be applauding your success when you pass me up. (whoever you are - you seem to think you know me, I have no idea who you are)

You might be interested in my next video - I'm working on a real time scoring system for trials events using electronic scoring chips and cell phones. It's kind of cool stuff. Stay tuned. I'll even add a sand bagger alert that will route to your cell phone so you can stone the rider in real time as they go by.

Anyway I got go - I'm done with this thread.
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:54 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
Interesting method used by our neighbors to the north to get more country wide participation. Not sure it works - just thought it was kinda cool.
http://www.trialscanada.com/champion...heights_en.pdf
Thats innovative.
It brings to mind one of my pet peeves, several clubs that I've encountered charge a higher entry fee to a visiting rider from another club than they do their club members.
Think about that, do you really want to discourage riders from traveling greater distances, and incurring the expenses of that travel, to come ride your Trial?
If your events are so well attended that you need to limit entries it makes some sense. But even then it's nice for your riders to have some different competitors in their classes for a change.
Of course the entry fee is a drop in the bucket compared to the travel expenses involved, but another $10.00 entry fee after spending $200.00 or more, just on fuel, adds insult to injury and makes visiting riders feel less than welcome.
From a strictly economic point of view, is it better to charge a visiting rider your regular entry fee, or less, or get nothing by discouraging that rider to the point that they don't come to your event at all?
I apologize for going off topic here but it's a rather old and diluted thread at this point, no less important though.
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