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Old 09-02-2013, 12:44 PM   #136
renogeorge
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I raised this issue in another thread. But, is there a consensus as to the need/benefit/disadvantages of the secondary butterflies after modding intake, exhaust and removing SAI, etc.?

Without trying to become an expert, I am really curious as to what controls them--ecu programming, sensor readings, phase of the moon, or???

If we are changing maps or mapping to optimize Fuel/Air, how would the butterflies help--adding more or less air to an already optimized mixture??

Obviously they are easy enough to remove or replace. I am just looking for the best starting point for my 990 Adventure mapping adventure and to reduce the number of trial and error scenarios.

Thanks!
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:18 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renogeorge View Post
I raised this issue in another thread. But, is there a consensus as to the need/benefit/disadvantages of the secondary butterflies after modding intake, exhaust and removing SAI, etc.?

Without trying to become an expert, I am really curious as to what controls them--ecu programming, sensor readings, phase of the moon, or???

If we are changing maps or mapping to optimize Fuel/Air, how would the butterflies help--adding more or less air to an already optimized mixture??

Obviously they are easy enough to remove or replace. I am just looking for the best starting point for my 990 Adventure mapping adventure and to reduce the number of trial and error scenarios.

Thanks!
Do some searching...there is a fair amount of info on this. However...a Rottweiler intake will have no effect on the results of disabling, removing, reshaping, etc the secondaries. I personally removed my secondaries completely (including shafts) as the previous owner removed the actual butterflies and left the shafts.
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:32 PM   #138
Kafn8td
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I noticed less engine braking when I pulled the secondaries, along with quicker revving. The CPR will allow even more air in with them pulled.
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Old 09-02-2013, 05:27 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by CPRFAB View Post
Well, after a long session of brainstorming at the Rottweiler headquarters with some great fellas that are right here on ADV, we have come up with some maps for the 07/08 ADV guys. There are available free at the link below and are as follows:

http://www.rottweilerperformance.com/Downloads.html

ADV 990 07/08 2-1 Exhaust - Rottweiler Intake - Tune ECU
This is the popular 2011 map we have that is 2-1 exhaust with Rottweiler Intake but changed to work with 07/08 Adv's. Basically the F1,F2,L1,L2 values have been changed to match the 2011 map but with the 07/08 operating background. We have loaded this into an 07 990 and it loaded fine. Did the 15 min reset and Rally West will report on the outcome. (Thank you!!) We have double checked the values in a map comparison and everything is spot on. NOW, the cams are different so keep that in mind. Again, Rally West will report a before and after using the 07 / 08 Akro map that is typically pretty rich as it has to be universal.

ADV 990 07/08 2-1 Exhaust - Rottweiler Intake - 1% Leaner - Tune ECU
Same as above just 1% leaner if so desired. High altitude, fuel mileage or you just think the map is too rich.

ADV 990 07/08 2-1 Exhaust - Rottweiler Intake - 2% Leaner - Tune ECU
Ditto, 2% leaner than the first map listed above for the same reasons stated under the second map.

Enjoy!!

Chris Parker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally_West View Post
Regarding the 2 into 1/2...as with any engine the goal is really to increase air in and air out. The current 2 into 1 mufflers on the market are not properly sized to either curb sound nor properly flow exhaust. Even in a perfectly built and tunes exhaust there is a point where increasing flow will exceed the desired noise level. I have run the stock side panel heaters , an Akropovic in 2 into 1 and a Remus in 2 into 1 (both 2 into 1s with and without noise tube). All of these feel about the same and I am sure likely flow similarly (all seat of the pants) In a perfect world I would chose a 2 into 2 with an X-pipe with a CPR intake...that setup would flow the most air (more than needed with stock cams and stock headwork). I chose 2 into 1 as I wanted the extra storage space of the lost can which I filled with CJ Designs storage box ( a great piece of kit). However I know I lose some flow and thus performance. The CPR Rottweiler intake certainly helped increase the flow (as can be seen by needing to add more fuel via TuneEcu...more air in needs more fuel and makes more power).

With that said...the stock maps (at least for 07-08 bikes) are way too lean. These might work at higher elevations (over 5000, but just a guess) but even then I think they will be too lean. The maps on CPR Rottweiler web page for the 07-08s are a great place to start. They are very safe with plenty of fuel added. I am actually running the Akropovic map available from TuneEcu website (which I am assuming is the KTM factory Akropovic map) and I have leaned that map out 2% across the board. I do still have some of the snatchy low TPS (right at throttle tip-in) but I am working with Chris at CPR Rottweiler to get rid of some of that. There are some good discussions in the TuneEcu Got Tunes thread here in the Orange Crush. Some folks are lowering the F/L switch values with good results, but I am still working on this for my bike.

At this point I would feel comfortable running the Rottweiler with any of the non-stock maps that are available from either CPR Rottweiler or on the TuneEcu site. Be sure to pick the map for your year bike and also in TuneEcu be sure to check the boxes for your setup (ie. SAI (SAS removed), O2s on or off (up to you), EPC, etc). There is PLENTY of discussion here in the Orange Crush about TuneEcu and how to use it. For those running the Dyno piggy back products you will obviously need to suss this out on your own (this thread kinda turned into a Rottweiler with TuneEcu thread).

Bottom line for me is that the Rottweiler intake is a great addition to the Adventures. I have more airflow (at least in, now I need to work on getting more out), a noticeable increase in power, I can easily change my prefilter and main filter in minutes, I saved a decent amount of weight and mass off the top of the motor, and it has a cool sound. The Rottweiler is a well thought out and well built product and Chris at CPR is committed to the 990 community and more than willing to spend the time I needed to answer any questions I have had.

PS I bought my Rottweiler from CJ after doing some research on CPR. CJ has always taken care of me and I run several of the products he designs and builds. Since I live close to CPR, I purchased my SAS plates and pre-filter directly from Chris. Do a little Googling on CPR and peep some of the exhaust and fab work he has done...pretty sick work. He also has a background in building Baja, Pikes Peak and many other cars (my real love).

This is the best thing i have herd all day long
I am going to be at the camp ground Tuesday afternoon is anyone going to bring there laptop?????????
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Old 09-02-2013, 07:04 PM   #140
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This is the best thing i have herd all day long
I am going to be at the camp ground Tuesday afternoon is anyone going to bring there laptop?????????
We will be at the campground for CJ's rally and time permitting will be showing off our new stuff there as well. Our plan is to have our laptop there with our Tune ECU cable and make / download custom maps for any customers there or bought before. That being said we have Ferraris for desktops here at home base but our laptop leaves something to be desired so it may be a chore. We will also be able to clear codes, turn off the 2nd butterflies, turn off SAS and so on for people that don't know how.
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Old 09-03-2013, 07:34 AM   #141
renogeorge
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Chris,

When using your 2007/2008 map for the 2 into 1 with CPR, would you remove the secondary butterflies, disable in the ECU (if that is possible) or what??

Thanks for all the work on the mapping issues!
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:06 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renogeorge View Post
Chris,

When using your 2007/2008 map for the 2 into 1 with CPR, would you remove the secondary butterflies, disable in the ECU (if that is possible) or what??

Thanks for all the work on the mapping issues!
In Tuneecu, you can set them to 100% which is fully open. It's close to having them removed.
That said, the bike (with a good map) responds better with the butterflies in with some mod on how much/when they open. From my experience, others may feel differently.
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:16 AM   #143
Jaimoto
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Originally Posted by bikyto View Post
In Tuneecu, you can set them to 100% which is fully open. It's close to having them removed
This.

Don't disable the 2nd butterflies in tuneecu if you didn't remove them. I know it's pretty obvious, just a reminder in case someone it's not familiar with the software or thinks disabled=open.
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Old 09-03-2013, 10:36 AM   #144
CPRFAB
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Originally Posted by renogeorge View Post
Chris,

When using your 2007/2008 map for the 2 into 1 with CPR, would you remove the secondary butterflies, disable in the ECU (if that is possible) or what??

Thanks for all the work on the mapping issues!
The secondary butterflies are somewhat of an anomaly. I am waiting for one of the Austrian Engineers on the HMC Factory AMA team to come back into the country and help me answer that question. I know allot of people "know" what they are for but we have heard anything from sound abatement, wheelie abatement and even controlling overrun. Our filter just flows way more and so on and taking them out or leaving them in is really up to preference and we are on a mission to find out directly from the factory engineers what they are intended for EXACTLY. Mitch Hansen from HMC racing has told me they always remove them on the RC8.

To address the other stuff, here are your options in order of complexity:
  • Just remove the screws and butterflies. Leave shafts present and turn nothing off in Tune ECU. (Easily reversible but not optimal if that is the way your leaving it as the shafts to interrupt flow)
  • Make them 100% open all the time in Tune ECU (The advantage here if you know your way around Tune ECU is that you don't have to take anything apart to try this. Disadvantage, there are still butterflies interrupting flow and you won't get the same type of air induction characteristics)
  • Remove the flies and motors and silicone the holes shut. Turn off 2nd throttle in Tune ECU (Only do this if your sure you want them gone. This is the smoothest you'll get the throttle bodies)
DO NOT turn them off and not remove them. The bike will run like a turd if at all.


We have been forming a Rottweiler Rider's Club here in So Cal with the goal of building somewhat of a think tank on these issues. So far our members are very "geeked up" on the prospect and we will be testing not only our own Rottweiler Products but investigating other ideas with dissenting opinions. We are looking forward to what can come out of this.
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Old 09-03-2013, 11:02 AM   #145
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1 The secondary butterflies increase velocity thru the throttlebodies at low RPM which increases atomization.
2 Allow KTM to limit your top end HP if you bought the standard model.
3 Hurt flow at high RPM. If your rippin around at 16,000 RPM all day take them out. Shafts too!

IF your fuel map sucks , removing them can slow the fuel charge and smooth the throttle sometimes. It can also cause a lean condition. Just depends on your individual map/bike.
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Old 09-03-2013, 11:13 AM   #146
tahoeacr
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Originally Posted by CPRFAB View Post
I am waiting for one of the Austrian Engineers on the HMC Factory AMA team to come back into the country and help me answer that question. Mitch Hansen from HMC racing has told me they always remove them on the RC8.


We have been forming a Rottweiler Rider's Club here in So Cal with the goal of building somewhat of a think tank on these issues. So far our members are very "geeked up" on the prospect and we will be testing not only our own Rottweiler Products but investigating other ideas with dissenting opinions. We are looking forward to what can come out of this.

I'm interested to hear what he has to say. I'm sure his RC8's are highly tuned without them. If removed, the map should be tuned for that and very few riders have the tools to do that.
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Old 09-03-2013, 02:34 PM   #147
MAXVERT
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Secondaries

Spark01's post on page 5 of the tuneECU thread

Yes and No
A EFI engine can run fine without a high(er) velocity in the throttle bodies.
Because it automaticly adjust it's fuel to the ammount of air that is sucked in to the engine.
But to make an engine run more smooth in the lower or mid/range if you immediatly open the throttle, you will need a smooth alteration in air velocity.
That's why secondary valves are used..



here some more about the secondary's

Secondary throttle valves....There are many thoughts on just what the heck they do. Some say it's for noise abatement, others think they just get in the way and affect the true performance of the bike and some would just rather remove them.

Since the introduction of fuel injection, we no longer require a pressure drop through a ventury to pull fuel from a fuel bowl, and introduce it into the engine. We have a fuel pump that sends pressurized fuel to fuel injectors, and thanks to IC chips, and sensors, we can spray the fuel into the engine. No need for fancy needle jets, main jets, primary jets, and airbleed jets. Never mind making sure the fuel level in the carb bowls is the correct height.

There is one thing that's important with the CV carburetor and that's how it keeps the air velocity constant through the intake ports regardless of throttle position. If you ever had flat slide carbs, and immediately opened the throttle, you would notice that the engine would take a big gulp of air, and hesitate, or even stall. Accelerator pumps were introduced to keep this in check. So, in regards to keeping air velocities constant especially at lower engine rpms, one concept for a fuel injected engine is to add separately controlled throttle plates that can move independently from the main throttle plates. This way, if the throttle plates are opened quickly, air velocity will drop, but with the Secondary Throttle plates lagging just behind, can keep the air velocity up, and help with atomization of the fuel injected into the engine. of course if you are racing the bike, and it never sees rpms below 6 to 7,000 rpms, there is no sense on having the secondary throttle plates there, and can be removed for some added increase of air. Most of us don't race, and use the engine through a wide range of rpms, and with the STV's installed really doesn't detract from performance, but keeps it more tractable




On a german KTM forum they did a test with installed/removed 2nd valves on a dyno with a 990sm.
With the valves removed it did run a little bit smoother on the low rpm's but it did loose some power on top?? .
With the valves installed again, the power output on top was back to "normal".
They could reproduce it by removing/installing the 2nd valves.

My sugestion is to set the 2nd valves in the TuneEcu a little bit more open in the 2nd throttle map on the low rpm's.
But don't remove them.

My bike is running great but I'm rereading the thread.

Max
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:21 PM   #148
renogeorge
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Wow! Great info from guys that know.

I could care less about getting the last bit of high rpm power out of my 990. I am 100% focused on getting a smooth transition off idle and right on up.

What I think I am getting out of the info provided, is that there is no mechanical reason for the secondary butterflies. I get the example of a carburetor where quick max throttle opening reduces vacuum across the jets and reduces fuel until vacuum catches up (or an accelerator pump provides the additional fuel needed). But we don't have to worry about it with FI.

Additional atomization?? Not sure I understand--is the secondary butterfly supposed to create turbulence for the incoming air before the fuel is injected? Seems like this might have some impact if it took place AFTER the fuel was injected??

So, if the butterflies aren't needed for these reasons, what is left is an "over-ride or buffering" of the primary fuel air mixture control and dictated by the ECU. I am struggling with that. If I knew is was lean in a certain range, why wouldn't I just richen up those cells as opposed to telling the secondary butterflies to stay closed to richen the mixture?

I'm probably missing something here....

Oh yea, prior to the CPR, 2 into 1 and any mapping, I removed the butterflies. Definitely smoothed things out. So, put 'em back in for mapping with the mods??
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:39 PM   #149
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Here is one to ponder. I have never once seen a race car, of any kind, high or low rpm, possess secondary butterflies. I have seen allot of race cars from all walks and been lucky enough to have been part of a team that built many cars from scratch in upwards of 850K and none of them had anything of the sort. Just straight through.

Tahoecr, I know you have extensive experience as well with race cars and you spend allot of your time in the pits, what's your take on this? I know of variable height velocity stacks, shower head injectors and so on, but have never seen this on a car. Pseudo fly by wire?
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:50 PM   #150
renogeorge
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You guys are the experts. But I keep coming back to emissions. Bikes sold all over the world in different markets with different emissions standards. So KTM leaves the maps relatively consistent and tweaks mixtures to pass in each market by use of secondary butterflies, operating when and as needed for each market's testing protocol.????
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