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Old 08-25-2013, 07:04 AM   #16
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwell View Post
I've never had the battery tender on the battery for longer than over night.

I tested the start relay several days ago. I disconnected it and used some spare wire to jumper directly to the battery terminals. It seemed to operate without any problems.

I haven't measure the voltage with the bike running at all. I'll do that today after we get a boost and the engine is running. By mid-range, do you mean around 5000 rpm or so?

I haven't had time to read through your other thread on batteries, so I don't know what this means exactly. Does this mean the battery cells are not of equal voltages? How would I balance them?

I'm just going to double-check the ground connections, but, If everything runs fine when boosted from another battery, I guess I'd have to conclude that the battery is shot. I will have to use whatever is available here.
by mid rpm meaning engine spinning substantially over idle. you've got a permanent magnet type charging system. so it's putting out almost full output even at lower rpm.

if you've only had battery tender jr on for short charge periods. unlikely charger/tender damaged your Shorai LFX18. overnight resting voltage 14.25v indicates a fully charged state.

LiFePO4 will drop to about 13.3v for most of it's operating cycle. when it drops to 12.85v, it's got about 15% remaining. li-ion batteries will put out full power until almost dead. then output will drop drastically. don't go below 12.85v or life of battery will be reduced.

you've got balance ports on side of Shorai LFX18 to be used with an RC type charger with balance leads. unfortunately most folks don't buy one of those type chargers. on top of seldom being used.

the RC crowd understands need for balance chargers for li-on cells. which are balanced charged each and every time. almost all consumer devices that use multiple li-ion cells will contain a BMS or battery management system.

Motorcycle LiFePO4 batteries are one of the few application not to include a BMS that internally balances cells. except for EarthX which has used internal cell balancing right from the beginning.

LiFePO4 cells are matched when mfg. the higher the cell count, the harder it is to achieve a set of cells that match closely. it's impossible to match perfectly everytime.

as cells age they will go out of balance. this is why LiFePO4 batteries with internal cell balancing are better.

when you jump start .. attach positive clamp directly to battery terminal. ground clamp can go to engine. you need to find out if relay or something else is causing your problems, not the battery.

positive cable goes directly to starter .. when jumper is applied, increases voltage to solenoid wire, starting bike. you could also have a bad starter.

yes if bike starts everytime with booster cables attached directly to battery. then your Shorai LFX18 is no longer serviceable. if cause is due to cell unbalance drastically reducing capacity. a balance charger might bring it back to life. but that's no help to someone in the middle of no-where.

Shorai LFX18 is way too small for your 990 Adv. go with an AGM for rest of your trip.

this what can happen when cells age and get out of balance without an internal BMS

_cy_ screwed with this post 08-25-2013 at 07:32 AM
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:08 PM   #17
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Got a boost today. Bike started up right away from the car battery.

I rode 2 hours into Reykjavik and we stopped to use the internet for an hour. Went out and the bike started up again on the Shorai battery. I let the bike idle until 4 bars on the temperature scale, measured the voltage at the connection point to ground:

idle speed: 13.2V
5000 rpm: 12.95V

We went to a friends for dinner after. The bike sat for two hours while we ate. When leaving, the bike fired right up on the Shorai battery. I am seeing that, if sitting for longer than three to four hours, the bike will not start on the Shorai and I need to get a boost. This has been recurring. We are set up to camp outside a friend's place, and I am almost certain that the bike will not start on the Shorai in the morning.

I will try to find an AGM battery tomorrow when the shops open. I've had to read about what they are, and hopefully I will be able to find one here, in Iceland.

Thanks for all your help.
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Old 08-25-2013, 06:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwell View Post
Got a boost today. Bike started up right away from the car battery.

I rode 2 hours into Reykjavik and we stopped to use the internet for an hour. Went out and the bike started up again on the Shorai battery. I let the bike idle until 4 bars on the temperature scale, measured the voltage at the connection point to ground:

idle speed: 13.2V
5000 rpm: 12.95V

We went to a friends for dinner after. The bike sat for two hours while we ate. When leaving, the bike fired right up on the Shorai battery. I am seeing that, if sitting for longer than three to four hours, the bike will not start on the Shorai and I need to get a boost. This has been recurring. We are set up to camp outside a friend's place, and I am almost certain that the bike will not start on the Shorai in the morning.

I will try to find an AGM battery tomorrow when the shops open. I've had to read about what they are, and hopefully I will be able to find one here, in Iceland.

Thanks for all your help.
if your meter is correct, below figures are way too low. your alternator is not putting out. ALL charging systems designed to support PB will put out 13.8v to 14.2v when engine is rev'd to mid range.

voltage drop at higher rpm indicates no charging .. bike is running on battery alone and will draw more power to run bike at higher rpm. charge your Shorai with your battery tender jr every chance you get to top off.

if your bike starts with Shorai alone intermittently, starting to sound like it's an electrical problem with relay and/or starter. or just simply a low battery from a dead charging system. what puzzles me is when you charged Shorai overnight .. 14.25v indicates a fully charged battery. normally if battery starting bike substitutes for load test.

idle speed: 13.2V
5000 rpm: 12.95V

if you are running on battery alone... don't run any lights or anything else to extend run. worst case strap a car battery on back to get you to a repair facility.

all cheap meters are assumed incorrect until proven otherwise. ez to check your meter .. find a mechanic with a known to be correct meter. then have them measure your battery with bike not running. yours should read the same. then ask mechanic to chase down your electrical gremlins...

sure sounds like your stator and/or rectifier/regulator is toast.

_cy_ screwed with this post 08-25-2013 at 06:42 PM
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Old 08-26-2013, 12:25 AM   #19
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I'm in Reykjavik now. Going to try to chase down the electrical problems today. I've noticed some dirty connectors that I've tried to clean but, at the time, I only had some chain cleaner. Going to try to pick up some electrical contact cleaner.

In the event that the issue is a result of a bad rectifier/regulator, do you know the part number for that? I can't seem to find it in the parts fiche. Do you recommend the OEM one? I've read a bit about MOSFET types.

Also, in the event that I do need to order a new rectifier/regulator, would it be safe to ride as we have been for the past several days (getting boosts when needed) so that we can keep travelling and have the part shipped ahead of us? Or is it bad/damaging in any way to ride with as bad charging system?


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Old 08-26-2013, 01:08 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Rockwell View Post
I'm in Reykjavik now. Going to try to chase down the electrical problems today. I've noticed some dirty connectors that I've tried to clean but, at the time, I only had some chain cleaner. Going to try to pick up some electrical contact cleaner.

In the event that the issue is a result of a bad rectifier/regulator, do you know the part number for that? I can't seem to find it in the parts fiche. Do you recommend the OEM one? I've read a bit about MOSFET types.

Also, in the event that I do need to order a new rectifier/regulator, would it be safe to ride as we have been for the past several days (getting boosts when needed) so that we can keep travelling and have the part shipped ahead of us? Or is it bad/damaging in any way to ride with as bad charging system?


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
if your voltage readings are correct, your system is not charging. it's a bad stator and/or rectifier/regulator. a failed connector/wire could do it too... wires and connectors going from stator to rectifier/regulator are notorious for failing.

it will not hurt to keep riding like you are using battery in total discharge mode. just keep topping off battery at every chance.

your 990Adv came stock with a shunting type regulator, which converts excess power to heat. if you have a choice go with a switching type regulator, which basically connects/disconnects output to regulate voltage. runs cooler and is easier on stator.

one of the orange crush guys needs to advise on specific model with good feedback.

please let us know what the mechanic finds in electrical gremlins ...

_cy_ screwed with this post 08-26-2013 at 01:17 AM
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Old 08-26-2013, 01:28 AM   #21
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How is the rectifier/regulator output connected to the battery? There is no direct connection. I think the last time I was looking, the output of the rectifier/regulator went to the connector on top of the start relay. Is this correct?

If there is a bad connection there, the battery will not charge properly even if the stator and rectifier/regulator are functioning properly, I am guessing?

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Old 08-26-2013, 04:52 AM   #22
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I have similar issues, can you please test how loud is your horn sound when bike is running or on acc?
If the horn is not loud, then there could be a ground problem with your starter
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:07 AM   #23
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Some good info/links on teambft's thread today (950 Adventure regulator?) might also apply to you. If it is a vrr perhaps try Yamaha or snowmobile/quad shop for one if no KTM dealers?
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:52 AM   #24
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There is a KTM dealer here, but they didn't have regulators in stock. Would probably have to wait until the end of the week to get one here. We've been in Iceland for three weeks and we had to sit around and wait for the bike to arrive the first two weeks (papers got stalled in US customs and IcelandAir Cargo only ships out once a week).

I got some contact cleaner and cleaned all connections relating to the charging system. Also, a few months ago a cable rattled loose and melted against the exhaust. I spliced the wires and the bike was fine after that. I looked the wires up and it is the bundle that includes the start relay coil control and the regulator voltage. I re-spliced the wires to try to make sure the connections were good.

The bike seems to be firing up better now (maybe wishful thinking). My idle speed voltage reads 13.6V, but still drops when revved to 5000 rpm. That doesn't seem promising.

For now, we're going to try to make it around Iceland and, if the problem persists, replace the regulator when we get to mainland Europe.
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:55 AM   #25
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Also, a few months ago a cable rattled loose and melted against the exhaust. I spliced the wires and the bike was fine after that. I looked the wires up and it is the bundle that includes the start relay coil control and the regulator voltage. I re-spliced the wires to try to make sure the connections were good.

The bike seems to be firing up better now (maybe wishful thinking). My idle speed voltage reads 13.6V, but still drops when revved to 5000 rpm. That doesn't seem promising.
good grief ... that's some pretty important information that you left out.

you had a dead short within wiring harness that controls subsystem of what you been having problems with

starting to think that there's nothing wrong with Shorai LFX18, except being sized too small.

any competent mechanic should be able to wire in another rectifier/regulator from multiple applications. ALL regulators that support PB will be within same voltage range. choose a rectifier designed for same size watt output or larger than 990Adv.

wires/connectors that got hot enough to melt .. can corrode later causing all sorts of nasty intermittent gremlins.

you need to get this chased down while you are in a large enough town to find a competent motorcycle mechanic.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:28 PM   #26
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Yes. That happened months ago and, when I spliced the wires together, I didn't check what they were for. I just spliced them together with the same gauge wire, taped them up and everything ran fine. I looked them up today in the wiring diagram and realized that, based on their insulation colours, they were for the starter and charging circuit. I re-spliced them and soldered the connections this time.

When I bought the Shorai, I used their website and input my bike year and model. This is the battery that the search resulted in.

Right now, the motorcycle is firing up nicely. Tomorrow morning will be the moment of truth.

I had the dealer here look up the part number for the rectifier/regulator. He said that the original part number had been superseded. If I need a new regulator, it shouldn't be too hard to replace the original myself. If I go with a different manufacturer, I am sure I could wire it in with the proper tools. I've seen a few tutorial threads on it, too. Even if I don't know what I am doing, I like to do my own work on the bike. It saved a ton of money, and I need to know how to fix this thing on the road. I am still learning, and have a lot more to learn, but learning is a process and I learn as much from my mistakes. You've really helped me out. Thanks.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:48 PM   #27
Rafagas
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Shorai batt

Hy rocweld

I have shorai batt in my 2007, 990 adv, the batt from shorai (lithium)Works litlle diferent from, other comon batteries
The shorai are better tan other batts, moore power moore life and moore safety.

Please reed below



Hello Rafael,

This is a pasted quote of info regarding cold starts from our Senior Technical Suppot Manager:

Lithium Batteries by design offer better performance as the battery warms up. So, if the bike doesn't start on the first attempt in colder temperatures you will have the confidence knowing each subsequent attempt will get better. Lab tests typically measure higher delivered voltages even after 10 or more start simulations!

The key to cold starting is to use the bikes headlight and/or the starter motor current to warm the battery. In cold weather it helps to turn the headlight on for 1-2 minutes and then cycle the key off for 60 seconds before trying to start the bike, up to 5 attempts. If it doesn't start, repeat the headlight process until the battery warms enough to start the bike. If it is below 40F you may need to leave the headlight on for longer, but not more than 4-5 minutes at a time. And be sure to turn the key off to let the battery voltage recover for 60 seconds before trying to start the bike.

Additionally, turning on accessories that draw high current like heated grips or electric riding gear can be used to speed up the battery warming process substantially. If you use the accessories to speed up the battery heating process, it is suggested to turn them on for 2 minutes or less at a time between starter attempts. It is important to turn off the key for 60 seconds and leave the accessories off to reduce the load before attempting a start.

Sincerely,

Aaron Jackson-Wilde
Shrorai Inc.


I was running in my 990 for 2 years whit no problems, but you have undestand how shorai Works.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:49 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Rockwell View Post
Yes. That happened months ago and, when I spliced the wires together, I didn't check what they were for. I just spliced them together with the same gauge wire, taped them up and everything ran fine. I looked them up today in the wiring diagram and realized that, based on their insulation colours, they were for the starter and charging circuit. I re-spliced them and soldered the connections this time.

When I bought the Shorai, I used their website and input my bike year and model. This is the battery that the search resulted in.

Right now, the motorcycle is firing up nicely. Tomorrow morning will be the moment of truth.

I had the dealer here look up the part number for the rectifier/regulator. He said that the original part number had been superseded. If I need a new regulator, it shouldn't be too hard to replace the original myself. If I go with a different manufacturer, I am sure I could wire it in with the proper tools. I've seen a few tutorial threads on it, too. Even if I don't know what I am doing, I like to do my own work on the bike. It saved a ton of money, and I need to know how to fix this thing on the road. I am still learning, and have a lot more to learn, but learning is a process and I learn as much from my mistakes. You've really helped me out. Thanks.
please do check your volt meter against a known to be correct meter. it's important to know if readings given are accurate.

take another voltage reading at battery after you re-soldered wires/connectors. there's a distinct possibility your R/R was not charging due to bad connections... and is now charging.

if your 990Adv is now reading 13.8v to 14.2v at mid rpm and your starter is now working. you may have fixed your problems. if you are changing out R/R yourself on the road. it's better to go with KTM R/R for direct plugin with no chance of error. that's a spare part that I'd recommend carrying.

to know if your bike will start next morning... start measuring your Shorai before parking for the night. voltage 13.3v (90% full) or higher indicates a fully charged LiFePO4 battery.

no problems on the tech support .. I may need some help on the road when it's my turn RTW. let us know how you come out ..


_cy_ screwed with this post 08-26-2013 at 03:31 PM
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Old 08-26-2013, 03:10 PM   #29
_cy_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafagas View Post
Hy rocweld

I have shorai batt in my 2007, 990 adv, the batt from shorai (lithium)Works litlle diferent from, other comon batteries
The shorai are better tan other batts, moore power moore life and moore safety.

Please reed below



Hello Rafael,

This is a pasted quote of info regarding cold starts from our Senior Technical Suppot Manager:

Lithium Batteries by design offer better performance as the battery warms up. So, if the bike doesn't start on the first attempt in colder temperatures you will have the confidence knowing each subsequent attempt will get better. Lab tests typically measure higher delivered voltages even after 10 or more start simulations!

The key to cold starting is to use the bikes headlight and/or the starter motor current to warm the battery. In cold weather it helps to turn the headlight on for 1-2 minutes and then cycle the key off for 60 seconds before trying to start the bike, up to 5 attempts. If it doesn't start, repeat the headlight process until the battery warms enough to start the bike. If it is below 40F you may need to leave the headlight on for longer, but not more than 4-5 minutes at a time. And be sure to turn the key off to let the battery voltage recover for 60 seconds before trying to start the bike.

Additionally, turning on accessories that draw high current like heated grips or electric riding gear can be used to speed up the battery warming process substantially. If you use the accessories to speed up the battery heating process, it is suggested to turn them on for 2 minutes or less at a time between starter attempts. It is important to turn off the key for 60 seconds and leave the accessories off to reduce the load before attempting a start.

Sincerely,

Aaron Jackson-Wilde
Shrorai Inc.


I was running in my 990 for 2 years whit no problems, but you have undestand how shorai Works.
thanks very much for pointing out cold start procedures are different for LiFePO4 .. capacity drops by 1/2 at -10c ... it's important to warm up cells to allow more current to flow.

but what most LiFePO4 mfg don't tell you is ... heating up process uses up amp hour capacity. when KTM spec'd 11AH AGM and you are replacing with a LiFePO4 (Shorai LFX18) about 1/2 the actual amp hour spec'd by KTM.

your margin of error in terms of amp hour reserves is slim to none when starting at lower temps like below 30f.

if someone is using their 990Adv not far from home in moderate conditions... I'd recommend a EarthX ETX24 or Shorai LFX21 at minimum. for extended adventure duties in cold conditions ... go with largest LiFePO4 your can stuff into space available. that would be EarthX ETX36 or Shorai LFX36.

EarthX has internal BMS for cell balancing, overcharge and under discharge protections. a HUGE advantage!
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:54 PM   #30
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"...if someone is using their 990Adv not far from home in moderate conditions... I'd recommend a EarthX ETX24 or Shorai LFX21 at minimum. for extended adventure duties in cold conditions ... go with largest LiFePO4 your can stuff into space available. that would be EarthX ETX36 or Shorai LFX36."

FYI - I have a LFX21 from a previous bike, tried to fit into the stock location (990R) and the dimensions aren't right for it to fit. The 18 is the only Shorai that will work in stock location for the 990. If you know of a way for it to work please advise - PM so as not to sidetrack anymore -.

Rockwell - Good luck with this issue and continued safe travels. PM sent with a question.
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