ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Orange Crush
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-28-2013, 04:08 PM   #31
Warin
Retired
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Oddometer: 1,697
As said above .. temperature could be your problem.

You can take the battery off the bike at night .. into the tent with you - it will be warmer in there. And there will be not parasitic drain either. If it is really cold then put it in the sleeping bag with you.
Warin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 08:42 PM   #32
_cy_
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCflyer View Post
"...if someone is using their 990Adv not far from home in moderate conditions... I'd recommend a EarthX ETX24 or Shorai LFX21 at minimum. for extended adventure duties in cold conditions ... go with largest LiFePO4 your can stuff into space available. that would be EarthX ETX36 or Shorai LFX36."

FYI - I have a LFX21 from a previous bike, tried to fit into the stock location (990R) and the dimensions aren't right for it to fit. The 18 is the only Shorai that will work in stock location for the 990. If you know of a way for it to work please advise - PM so as not to sidetrack anymore -.

Rockwell - Good luck with this issue and continued safe travels. PM sent with a question.
nope right on topic .. OP needs to upsize LiFePO4 or go back to 11AH AGM.. Shorai LFX18 is just too small for the job ahead. EarthX ETX24 is the minimum that might do the job. ETX36 is the correct size for RTW adventure duties.

one shouldn't have to take their LiFePO4 battery into their sleeping bag. a true CCA rating means being able to deliver XX amps at zero degrees F for 30 seconds. EarthX has been adamant that their LiFePO4 batteries will deliver the specified CCA rating at zero degrees.

but note the brutal 200amp continuous load tests that LiFePO4 batteries are subjected in my tests way exceeds 30 seconds in duration. in ideal conditions 30 seconds crank times are plenty to start most modern bikes. but all it takes is one load of bad fuel to need that reserve capacity to crank and crank and crank and crank that bike over to hopefully start.

another important factor is your battery will NOT be fully charged everytime bike gets parked for the night. especially for the dreaded electric heated gear/cold temps/short ride followed by 25f next morning. this is where having enough reserve amp hour in your LiFePO4 really shows up.

note EarthX ETX24 is rated 7.5AH actual, but measured 6.3AH at 1amp discharge rate. LiFePO4 cell mfg will discharge at a much lower rate to come up with higher rating. I don't have the patience to wait days to arrive at max amp hour result.

EarthX ETX24 (150mm x 86mm x 115mm) is smaller than Shorai LFX21 as shown below.
EarthX ETX36 is same external size as ETX24 if memory is correct. ETX36 is installed on R80G/S, will measure if needed.


Shorai LFX36 next to EarthX ETX36

_cy_ screwed with this post 08-28-2013 at 09:35 PM
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 04:50 AM   #33
Rockwell OP
Studly Adventurer
 
Rockwell's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Oddometer: 646
It's strange that the Shorai website spit out my battery as being suitable for my bike, model and year. I have noticed once before that, when I am charging electronics while riding, the battery didn't have enough juice the following morning to start it. I think this has only happened once.

As for this issue, I have been able to start nicely for the past three days, ever since I re-spliced those wires. It seems there was a bad electrical connection that was preventing the alternator/rectifier/regulator from charging the battery fully.

I'll use this Shorai battery until I need a new one. When I do, I will look into maybe the EarthX.
__________________
not all those who wander are lost | two earthlings ride around the world
Home | Photo Blog | The Route | The Bike | About Us | Participate!
Rockwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 04:58 AM   #34
bikyto
Dans le doute...gaz!
 
bikyto's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Location: Northern Cali
Oddometer: 2,139
I have the Shorai that is recommended on their website. It has been working flawlessly for two and half years. It has seen the high deserts of California, the monsoon of Thailand and a frozen winter in Germany. Some rivers here and there. And a few more places.
At times, the bike was not started for several months.
I have tons of electrical gizmos. I've been checking my voltage continuously.

So far, I love the recommended battery. Now that I have said that....it will probably die tomorrow
__________________
The race is long and, in the end, it's only with yourself...
bikyto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 05:02 AM   #35
bikyto
Dans le doute...gaz!
 
bikyto's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2009
Location: Northern Cali
Oddometer: 2,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwell View Post

I'll use this Shorai battery until I need a new one. When I do, I will look into maybe the EarthX.
A friend got one for his 990 are buying the anti gravity that didn't fit.
I'll probably try it as well when I need one because of the cell balancing functionality on top of the good reviews.
__________________
The race is long and, in the end, it's only with yourself...
bikyto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 05:30 AM   #36
_cy_
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwell View Post
It's strange that the Shorai website spit out my battery as being suitable for my bike, model and year. I have noticed once before that, when I am charging electronics while riding, the battery didn't have enough juice the following morning to start it. I think this has only happened once.

As for this issue, I have been able to start nicely for the past three days, ever since I re-spliced those wires. It seems there was a bad electrical connection that was preventing the alternator/rectifier/regulator from charging the battery fully.

I'll use this Shorai battery until I need a new one. When I do, I will look into maybe the EarthX.
congrats!! sure sounds like you've fixed your original electrical gremlins...

it's common for LiFePO4 mfg to focus on starting requirement only and at moderate outside temperatures .. with little to no room for error in terms of reserve capacity. They certainly are not sizing a LiFePO4 for an RTW trip.

for low temperature operation. LiFePO4 is drastically affected by lower temps. a warm up procedure is necessary to get battery anywhere near full output. current has to flow for this to work. that takes reserve capacity. a dead drain doesn't understand PB/EQ.

at -10c LiFePO4 capacity drops in half from an already too small AH capacity with LFX18 that's about half of 11AH KTM rating. a 1,000cc class bike usually takes a larger AGM than 11AH. KTM engineers are known for running it at the very edge weight wise.

one important trait of li-on batteries is how power is delivered. unlike PB where battery's power output tapers as battery gets drained. LiFePO4 delivers full power until output drops dramatically with little to no warning.

on the positive side .. modern bikes like 990Adv if running good will seldom need more than a few seconds of cranking to start even at cold temps.

making sure your LFX18 is fully charged before parking on cold nights would be good. should read 13.3v or above for 90% state of charge.

_cy_ screwed with this post 08-29-2013 at 05:55 AM
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 03:54 PM   #37
Warin
Retired
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Oddometer: 1,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
one shouldn't have to take their LiFePO4 battery into their sleeping bag. a true CCA rating means being able to deliver XX amps at zero degrees F for 30 seconds. EarthX has been adamant that their LiFePO4 batteries will deliver the specified CCA rating at zero degrees.
At low temperatures camera batteries suffer. Common practice is to removed the batteries and put them somewhere warm (sleeping bag overnight, pockets).

Most chemical reactions (like those in a battery) reduce with reductions in temperature. If I were having marginal problems in a place where temperatures were lower than what I'd previously had then warming things up might just help.
Warin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 04:04 PM   #38
_cy_
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warin View Post
At low temperatures camera batteries suffer. Common practice is to removed the batteries and put them somewhere warm (sleeping bag overnight, pockets).

Most chemical reactions (like those in a battery) reduce with reductions in temperature. If I were having marginal problems in a place where temperatures were lower than what I'd previously had then warming things up might just help.
totally true ... but if LiFePO4 motorcycle battery is sized correctly. one shouldn't have to keep their battery warm all night to be able to start their bike next morning.

note I'm not referring to special motorcycle high altitude record attempts. but normal cold weather riding. most of us will not ride much below 25f so that's about where I've set my bar for acceptable performance testing. cold mornings can easily dip to 20f .. but warms up to 25f range by mid-morning.

don't get me wrong there are some crazies that ride down below 15f .. so I've done starting tests with LiFePO4 at 15f where a bike can draw 250+ amps continuous vs same bike 100amps at 50f.
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2014, 09:52 AM   #39
Rockwell OP
Studly Adventurer
 
Rockwell's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Oddometer: 646
I should provide an update to this thread with how things were eventually solved.

After repairing the wires in Iceland, the bike started up completely fine for almost a week.

We got to the southern part of Iceland and were in the middle of nowhere visiting the Glacier Lagoon when the bike wouldn't start again. It turned out that the start relay that tested fine the week before had completely failed. I had to use a screwdriver for the next week to start the bike. I replaced the start relay when we got to Germany.

Everything was fine until we got to colder temperatures where we were required to warm up the battery in order to start. Because, as others have suggested, the battery was undersized, there wasn't enough juice left after warming it up to turn the engine over. I tested the output of the voltage regulator and the output dropped as the engine was revved up, which is the opposite of what should be expected. I replaced the rectifier/regulator while in Austria.


I still had problems starting in cold temperatures. The battery was just inside the 3-year warranty period, so I email Shorai to tell them that the battery that they originally deemed suitable for my bike was undersized. Shorai shipped me a replacement of their larger size battery for free, and let me keep the old one.

Starting in all conditions has been perfect ever since.
__________________
not all those who wander are lost | two earthlings ride around the world
Home | Photo Blog | The Route | The Bike | About Us | Participate!
Rockwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2014, 10:25 AM   #40
_cy_
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwell View Post
I should provide an update to this thread with how things were eventually solved.

After repairing the wires in Iceland, the bike started up completely fine for almost a week.

We got to the southern part of Iceland and were in the middle of nowhere visiting the Glacier Lagoon when the bike wouldn't start again. It turned out that the start relay that tested fine the week before had completely failed. I had to use a screwdriver for the next week to start the bike. I replaced the start relay when we got to Germany.

Everything was fine until we got to colder temperatures where we were required to warm up the battery in order to start. Because, as others have suggested, the battery was undersized, there wasn't enough juice left after warming it up to turn the engine over. I tested the output of the voltage regulator and the output dropped as the engine was revved up, which is the opposite of what should be expected. I replaced the rectifier/regulator while in Austria.


I still had problems starting in cold temperatures. The battery was just inside the 3-year warranty period, so I email Shorai to tell them that the battery that they originally deemed suitable for my bike was undersized. Shorai shipped me a replacement of their larger size battery for free, and let me keep the old one.

Starting in all conditions has been perfect ever since.
that just about covers everything except a new starter

yup original Shoria LFX18 (5AH) was way too small to have a hope of being reliable.

which model Shorai did they ship to replace? odds are it's too small to be reliable too. don't think Shorai offers a LiFePO4 with enough AH to be reliable for 990 and small enough to fit into 990's battery tray.

for folks riding in the middle to no-where including winter conditions .. a reliable install needs a LiFePO4 battery with actual AH equal or higher than OEM 12AH AGM. or one is much better off sticking with a quality AGM.

unless something changed .. only LiFePO4 that meets actual AH requirements to be reliable and small enough to fit 990 battery tray is EarthX ETX36 (14AH) .. Shorai ETX36 (14AH) would work excellent but is way too large to fit 990 battery tray. Same for Antigravity 16 or 20 cell LiFePO4 which would be reliable but is too big to fit 990 battery tray.

_cy_ screwed with this post 04-17-2014 at 10:33 AM
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2014, 11:22 AM   #41
Rockwell OP
Studly Adventurer
 
Rockwell's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Oddometer: 646
They shipped me this one: http://shoraipower.com/products?acti...7985&year=7985

It's the only one they recommend for the 990, even if it does not have adequate capacity. Have had no problems so far. With this and the spare, hopefully I will be fine until it's time to get a new battery.
__________________
not all those who wander are lost | two earthlings ride around the world
Home | Photo Blog | The Route | The Bike | About Us | Participate!
Rockwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2014, 12:14 PM   #42
_cy_
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwell View Post
They shipped me this one: http://shoraipower.com/products?acti...7985&year=7985

It's the only one they recommend for the 990, even if it does not have adequate capacity. Have had no problems so far. With this and the spare, hopefully I will be fine until it's time to get a new battery.
that's a LFX18A1-BS12 which weights 2.31lb or about 7AH actual .. pb/eq AH numbers and CCA mean little to nothing. evidently Shorai and EarthX has increased actual amp hour capacity for 18AH pb/eq numbers to about 7AH actual. still undersized but improving.

actual AH labeling has gotten soooo confusing that weight is the only reliable metric to approximate actual AH without doing an actual charge/discharge test to measure actual amp hour capacity. since all LiFePO4 cell material weight about the same and no LiFePO4 will intentionally add weight. weight is the only reliable indication for actual AH.

a good reference weight to use is Antigravity. to AG's credit they have always been very conservative with their AH claims.
take their weight for an 8 cell LiFePO4 = 5AH ... 12 cell = 7.5AH ... 16 cell = 10AH, etc. .. then compare AG's weight against other LiFePO4 mfg weight to determine aprox. actual AH capacity.

_cy_ screwed with this post 04-17-2014 at 12:20 PM
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2014, 05:01 PM   #43
Rockwell OP
Studly Adventurer
 
Rockwell's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario
Oddometer: 646
Yeah, the Shorai specs only show CCA, weight and polarity. Also, unless it's coded somewhere in the part number, it doesn't even tell me how many cells there are.

Your comparison of the different sized batteries results in 625mAH/cell. I guess I could apply this to other batteries if the number of cells is known since most of the weight comes from the cells? I guess that would assume that all cells are made with equal amp-hour capacity.
__________________
not all those who wander are lost | two earthlings ride around the world
Home | Photo Blog | The Route | The Bike | About Us | Participate!
Rockwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2014, 05:12 PM   #44
_cy_
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Oddometer: 5,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwell View Post
Yeah, the Shorai specs only show CCA, weight and polarity. Also, unless it's coded somewhere in the part number, it doesn't even tell me how many cells there are.

Your comparison of the different sized batteries results in 625mAH/cell. I guess I could apply this to other batteries if the number of cells is known since most of the weight comes from the cells? I guess that would assume that all cells are made with equal amp-hour capacity.
Shorai have been known to use both cylindrical and flat prismatic pouch cells. ALL 12v LiFePO4 uses 4x cells in series. cylindrical 26650 cells are used by Antigravity .. 4 x cells arranged in series/parallel configuration.

latest A123, 26mm x 650mm cell contain 2.5AH capacity .. so figure 2.5AH per 4x cell in series. yes it's critical for cell to be mated for internal resistance before assembly.

vs flat prismatic cells which still use 4x flat cells in series .. but larger AH cells are used to create larger AH batteries. using same 4x cells in series.

flat pouch cells have advantage of being more compact. disadvantage of less robust terminals. cylindrical cells due to metal clad are more robust.

ALL LiFePO4 cell material weight about the same .. external shell and/or lack of makes weight differences. this is why weight can be used to approximate actual amp hour capacity. when I posted .. LFX18A1-BS12 which weights 2.31lb or about 7AH actual .. was being generous .. it's probably closer to 6AH actual.

Antigravity 12 cell = 7.5AH actual .. weight 2lb 11.8oz


this Shorai LFX21 weight 2lb 14.9oz and measured 7AH actual with charge/discharge tests with Powerlab 8.


EarthX ETX24 weight 2lb 4.4oz .. measured 7AH capacity with charge/discharge tests Powerlab 8

_cy_ screwed with this post 04-18-2014 at 08:50 AM
_cy_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014, 02:38 PM   #45
Warin
Retired
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Oddometer: 1,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockwell View Post
Your comparison of the different sized batteries results in 625mAH/cell. I guess I could apply this to other batteries if the number of cells is known since most of the weight comes from the cells? I guess that would assume that all cells are made with equal amp-hour capacity.
Batteries = Chemistry + physics

A cell will have a given voltage no matter what the weight... simple chemistry provides the voltage.

A cells weight will be proportional to the energy it can carry .. usually measured in Ah (Ampre hours). So weight ~ Ah.

Look at an AAA sized battery .. now a D sized battery same voltage (given the same chemistry eg Ni-MH) but different Ah.
Warin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 07:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014