ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Old's Cool > Airheads
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-09-2013, 08:44 AM   #31
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 8,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by disston View Post
You may find info by using Goole Search. And there are the standard sources. I gave you Anton's pages earlier. Have you become familiar with Snowbum yet? He gets criticized for a bit too much wordiness but he does have the info. I always turn to Snowbum first for torque values and most any other numbers.

There are several other areas to look at while the trans is away. The swing arm bearings should be removed and cleaned so new grease can be installed. Don't take the races out unless any of the bearings show dark shadows and need to be replaced.

I think you took the through out pieces all out of the trans before it was shipped? The long rod with the felt should not have mushrooming on either end. (BTW don't take the felt off. the old one will work better than a new one unless extremely worn).

There is the small roller bearing which I think should be replaced as a general rule. (this time, new trans, new bearing) It is not cheap but it can take the entire rear cover with it if it blows and they are hard to judge. I put a new one in when I put the current trans in.

The two thrust pieces. I might have to change these in the next couple of weeks. I'll try to remember to take pictures. They will get pitted or show other surface imperfections if they are going. A little discoloring is probably OK.

The throw out arm that is held by the pin on the back of the trans. Pins get scored because nobody greases them. The boss the pin is in should fit nicely. The E-clip holding the pin in place must be in good shape.

Some riders replace the pin with a bolt and a Nylock nut because it seems more secure. I have never had trouble with the OEM system unless I wasn't paying attention when I put it together.

The rear wheel itself has a complicated bearing set up. This part can always be tended to at a later date but we should probably cover it before you get the trans back. Lots of time.
I am not the only inmate here that isn't so much concerned about snobum's verbosity as I am all the wrong info he offers. I would say about half if it concerning what I have managed to read. I feel sorry for those that dont know any better.

How long the splines will actually last before failing is completely beside the point. That 'little bit of slop' makes a huge difference in how the bike handles. It turns your rubber cow into a jello cow. No wonder so many think of their airhead as a tractor.
supershaft is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 09:12 AM   #32
disston
ShadeTreeExpert
 
disston's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Silver Spring, Md
Oddometer: 7,992
Bookmark this site. They are useful for parts number searches. This site does not sell parts but if you want to copy something off their site it works better than the other sites. Remember RealOEM dot com doesn't sell anything and consequently the prices they have posted are not accurate. If you want prices you have to look on another site, which we'll cover another time.

http://realoem.com/bmw/

Secondly there is a bit of navigation to get to the pages you want. And there will be a bit of learning how BMW sorts and classifies it's parts. This one won't be too hard but if you find this page you'll have the part numbers.



Parts number 18, 19 and 20 are not on your bike. On this page they are posted with a ? in the number column. Sometimes parts not needed are just not listed even though they may be in the picture.

Part #3 is called the Driving Dog by BMW. We often call it the Wheel Spline Hub. It is the splines riveted in the wheel hub.

Parts #6 & #13 are the wheel seals. They may need changing but you probably want to not change them if you can because they are not cheap.

Part #9 is the wheel bearing. There are two per wheel. The same wheel bearings are used on the front wheel and the rear wheel. It is a generic bearing which means there are bearings that will fit your bike other than the BMW part number. The grease seals which I mentioned earlier are not available generically as far as I know and if you need grease seals I think you have to use BMW's.

The generic # for BMW Airhead wheel bearing is 30203. It can be bought for 1/4 or less than the cost of the BMW part.

There is a web blog with a lot of wheel info, and other Airhead info, run by Duane Ausherman.

http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/wheel_bearing/index.htm

This page gives the routine for checking the wheel bearing load. You should follow Duane's directions and make the tube tool to check the bearing preload. Clean and regrease the bearings. Replace the bearings or seals if needed.

As far as heating the wheel hubs to get the bearings out, I use a propane torch. Boiling water also works I hear but I find the torch easier for me. It's how I leaned to do this.
__________________
.
Never memorize something you can look up.
---Albert Einstein

Pay your debt, piratejohn.http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949341
disston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 09:27 AM   #33
disston
ShadeTreeExpert
 
disston's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Silver Spring, Md
Oddometer: 7,992
Parts #8 & #14 in the rear wheel above are the Top Hat spacers. You will be able to get them out before the bearings are out. The Brim of the Hat of the Top Hat spacer can be placed inside or outside the seal. The seal rotates on the Top Hat spacer. The left side seal comes off with the Cover and the right side seal can be pulled. The right side Top Hat spacer is available in two sizes. One longer than the other. The original one on the right was the shorter one but you may have the longer one in place. Notice this when you are taking the bearings off the wheel.

BTW, the rear wheel has to be disassembled and the bearings and their races removed to get everything clean and examine the bearings. The front wheel is a lot easier.

The left side bearing can be removed after taking the cover off. But put it back on. To remove the bearings as a single stack it is easiest so the bearing has to be in place to get everything else out as one piece. The cover will be removed and the tool that Duane has mentioned is assembled with the axle so it will all come out together.

Pay attention here to what is going on. I have tried to not get confused and write anything that is actually wrong but if my confusion or your confusion cross you can actually cause some kind of damage to the wheel. Like everything else on these older bikes another, even used, wheel will be priced way out of proportion to what you had to pay to get the complete machine.

That is it for now. Let us know how you are making out. Ask questions. You have the entire rear end of the bike apart and it is a lot.

How is it coming with replacing the main rear seal and the oil pump O-ring? Did your flywheel have a spacer and/or an O-ring. If you have an O-ring under the flywheel (which I think you do) it looks exactly like the O-ring for the oil pump. They are not the same and you will have oil pressure problems if the wrong O-ring is installed at the pump.
__________________
.
Never memorize something you can look up.
---Albert Einstein

Pay your debt, piratejohn.http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949341

disston screwed with this post 09-09-2013 at 09:45 AM
disston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 10:02 AM   #34
disston
ShadeTreeExpert
 
disston's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Silver Spring, Md
Oddometer: 7,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
I am not the only inmate here that isn't so much concerned about snobum's verbosity as I am all the wrong info he offers. I would say about half if it concerning what I have managed to read. I feel sorry for those that dont know any better.

How long the splines will actually last before failing is completely beside the point. That 'little bit of slop' makes a huge difference in how the bike handles. It turns your rubber cow into a jello cow. No wonder so many think of their airhead as a tractor.
I think you are a smarter person than I am sometimes and other times I just think we disagree. Most of the time things from Snowbum I disagree with are just theory and stuff that isn't too practical or stuff I don't worry about. I think I personally edit his stuff automatically.

I get your point about the splines needed fixed. Yes these are pretty far gone. But he is doing the trans and possibly the clutch and a whole shit load of stuff already so I just felt it could wait. That's all.

It will be a jello cow but it will run. Depending on how far he drives the splines will need doing later this year, Winter project? or next year. I think they will go 20K?

Nathan, The wheel hub cost close to a hundred dollars. Installation can be done by you. It is helpful maybe to have a large drill press but I did mine with a hand drill. The rivets will be replaced by nuts and bolts.

The spline on the final drive are a different story. The place to repair these is Hansen's BMW. I forget if it is $400 or $500 for this job. It is on their Web Site.

http://www.hansensmc.com/

I mentioned earlier that somebody else would be more interested in the splines than I was. My figure of 50% was more of a feel good figure though than an estimate of life.
__________________
.
Never memorize something you can look up.
---Albert Einstein

Pay your debt, piratejohn.http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949341
disston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 12:13 PM   #35
Natter2002 OP
Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Minnesota
Oddometer: 39
Todays progress

Thanks guys, that is excellent information. I dont have kids yet so my scenario at home offers A LOT! of time to myself, with an OK equipped, heated garage with a nice stall all to myself. I'd say after I get home from work, and before I go to bed, after taking care of all the normal living chores like food and other home and garage needs, I have at least 2 or 3 hours a day to myself (When my wife is at work or working out or at our other appointments) So that is why I was half asssed looking for a project to do in my garage to fill some of this time. Now that that transmission is out and away, and winter will be coming close, I am just going to go whole hog and rip into anything you guys think should be looked at!

Here is a picture of the flywheel bolts I had:


Here are the ends of the push rod




Here are the tips of diaphram spring, Thoughts? Looks good to my untrained eyes:


Please inspect with my the condition of the flywheel teeth: Do you see those grooves cut into the valleys of the teeth? I am not missing any teeth but I tried to take a bunch of pictures of what I am worried about. Could this be an indication of when I hit the starter, it cranks over normally, but then when the engine catches it kind of makes what I would call a grind. but it's less than a quarter of a second. In fact if I am quick with the starter button (letting it off fast enough) it doesnt seem to make that noise. Anyway I feel the photos show it correctly.



The flywheel had one whiteish o ring on it. I dont know about spacers, if it had one I'm assuming that would be a seperate part that would have fallen off?

The oil pump: It took some work, I damaged one phillips scew, so I will have to order those, but I got it off. I gauged the two rotors and everything looks awesome and is within spec. The only issue is Clymer says to install the rotors with the marks facing out. Only my inner rotor had a mark on it. The outer rotor (photos showing both sides) has no mark. I can see a very faint markings or wear lines, but not "scoring" that you can NOT feel with your finger that are different on both sides of the outer rotor (highly visible on the picture) so I can tell what way it was at least when it came out. Thoughts on that!?

The clutch: Well, I've measured just the edges and I'm almost at 6MM. I'm guessing it must have been replaced not too many miles back? It's stamped FS, that means its an aftermarket, doesnt it?

I'm sorry these pictures are enormous!!!! WTF?

Natter2002 screwed with this post 09-09-2013 at 12:40 PM
Natter2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 01:05 PM   #36
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 8,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by disston View Post
I think you are a smarter person than I am sometimes and other times I just think we disagree. Most of the time things from Snowbum I disagree with are just theory and stuff that isn't too practical or stuff I don't worry about. I think I personally edit his stuff automatically.

I get your point about the splines needed fixed. Yes these are pretty far gone. But he is doing the trans and possibly the clutch and a whole shit load of stuff already so I just felt it could wait. That's all.

It will be a jello cow but it will run. Depending on how far he drives the splines will need doing later this year, Winter project? or next year. I think they will go 20K?

Nathan, The wheel hub cost close to a hundred dollars. Installation can be done by you. It is helpful maybe to have a large drill press but I did mine with a hand drill. The rivets will be replaced by nuts and bolts.

The spline on the final drive are a different story. The place to repair these is Hansen's BMW. I forget if it is $400 or $500 for this job. It is on their Web Site.

http://www.hansensmc.com/

I mentioned earlier that somebody else would be more interested in the splines than I was. My figure of 50% was more of a feel good figure though than an estimate of life.
Smarter? I don't know about that. I have never thought about it along those lines. That's for sure. Snobum's theory is very often wrong but IMO that is the most important part. Understanding the situation gets you past all sorts of things not covered on his website or anywhere else. It's THE most Human element of our lives. My advise is to try to be Human! And don't rely on him!

It will run but just running and running right are two completely different animals. There are enough airheads out there that run and ride like crap chugging and shaking along making all kinds of valve train noise and whatnot.

Just to put another opinion in the mix about Duane Ausherman's site. I think it's worse than snobum's. His wheel bearing article in particular. I have read many a internet user reciting his article and treating their axle nut as if it were a bearing adjuster. I can't say that I blame them after reading that article. I have repeatedly read him advising others to not tighten down their axle nuts to spec in order to save the wheel bearings. WRONG! Adjust the bearings correctly and torque the nut to spec! That is the whole point of adjusting them correctly!!! His bearing wear projections, supposedly sourced from Temkin (like that is going to be subjective), is hilarious. Billions of miles. Some of us know what a billion is! My own personal experience with tapered wheel bearings versus sealed ball wheel bearings is exactly the opposite of his 'scientific' findings. Go figure since his source of tapered bearing wear is from a tapered bearing manufacturer. He is always going on about erroneous torque values in the manuals and whatnot but the very first torque value I paid attention to on his website was WAY off. I'll stop here but please try to warn people that might not have your automatic internal editors.
supershaft is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 01:18 PM   #37
Natter2002 OP
Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Minnesota
Oddometer: 39
What do you think of that flywheel, supershaft?

Is it F'd?, also on the oil pump cover (figured I'd ask otherwise I'll throw anything on it) Clymer says to use "three bond 1216" gasket sealer. How critical is that, can I just use anything? The reason I ask is it appears that it is not in production and I'm looking for an alternative I can tack on to an order of Honda Moly 60.

Natter2002 screwed with this post 09-09-2013 at 01:32 PM
Natter2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 05:32 PM   #38
disston
ShadeTreeExpert
 
disston's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Silver Spring, Md
Oddometer: 7,992
I don't recall anybody recommending a sealant on the oil pump cover. That cover has an O-ring on it and it works very well. Check the cover for wear grooves and the same for the two pieces of the pump. If wear is severe the parts can be replaced. The cover on your bike should have the counter sunk screws, Phillips head. A replacement oil pump cover will be held on with small bolts and also counter sunk but differently. So you use the screws or bolts dependent on which cover you have. The bolts are better but the screw covers work fine if all the threads are good.

The Phillips screws are NLA I think. I'm not sure what others have done when they needed one screw. I replaced the cover on my pump but I had a used one.

I'll look and see if I have an extra Phillips screw.

When you get ready to install the rear main seal it is installed dry. Clean but dry. Older mechanics have trouble with this because we have been soaking such seals in oil for too long. Don't worry. It goes on dry.

The clutch disk is fine. Pressure springs loose tension. They get weak. That one is probably fine. There's a way to measure the tension with a scale or something but I just press down on it and if it doesn't feel wimpy I use it.

There's an O-ring inside the space the crankshaft fits on the flywheel? You'll be getting two O-rings from where ever you buy parts. These two O-rings will be very similar but one will be thicker than the other one. The thinner O-ring goes on the oil pump cover. I've never seen this set up. My 1975 is different. Never heard of a white O-ring.

The throw out pieces look fine. Keep the felt. It's fine. Get a new roller bearing. You want to check the two faces on the thrust pieces that the rollers mate with. If they have pits on them you caught it in time but they need changing. If the thrust pieces are smooth they are fine.

Those a 11mm flywheel bolts they are reusable as long as the threads are not banged up or otherwise damaged. I'll find the flywheel torque figure to use later. if I forget remind me. We don't use many of the torque values in Clymer's.
__________________
.
Never memorize something you can look up.
---Albert Einstein

Pay your debt, piratejohn.http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949341
disston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 06:24 PM   #39
Natter2002 OP
Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Minnesota
Oddometer: 39
Charlie,
What do you think of the flywheel teeth and those gouges in the valleys, I looked around for a picture of a new one. I was wishfully thinking that possibly it should be like that
Natter2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 06:40 PM   #40
disston
ShadeTreeExpert
 
disston's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Silver Spring, Md
Oddometer: 7,992
The flywheel is fine. You may be holding the starter button down too long and the starter Bendix could be getting beat up but I wouldn't worry about it. The lines in the valleys of the teeth are normal, part of the manufacturing process.

I think you are not using enough enrichner so you crank, crank, crank too much.

A note on stating these bikes. I'm sure there are other methods and other riders that have a system that works for them. But I find my bike starts easier if I always use the enrichners when the bike is cold, not just in Winter or something, but all year round. In the Summer I use less but I still use the enrichner.

I also use some throttle when starting and rev the engine immediately. When I start my bike I want it to start on the first crank. I want it to spring to life with authority.

I don't warm the bike up much except in Winter when I do a little more. In the Summer maybe one minute of warming or less. I may or may not have the enrichners off but It's not really warm. I don't have to climb any hills or enter the Freeway immediately so I can usually ride away at ease and not putting a large load on the engine.
__________________
.
Never memorize something you can look up.
---Albert Einstein

Pay your debt, piratejohn.http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949341
disston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 06:50 PM   #41
Natter2002 OP
Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Minnesota
Oddometer: 39
Thank you,
Regarding starting, I confirmed I had a plugged hole in one of my float bowls that I could not free up, thus rendering the "choke" useless on that carb. I agree with you regarding method. I have a new float coming in the mail from Hucky. Anyway I did have to "abuse" the starter (by using it a lot!) when I was getting it running the first time and when I was timing it. I just COULD NOT get the timing figured out ( I have since learned), but I HIGHLY suspect this was due to my points gap not being set correctly first. I do not want to digress on this specific thread at this point. A local in my area has agreed to lend me the northwoods spacing tool so I will try that when it is time, later in the season.
Natter2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 06:55 PM   #42
disston
ShadeTreeExpert
 
disston's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Silver Spring, Md
Oddometer: 7,992
You are learning. A year from now you will use and comprehend terms that were totally foreign to you before you bought this bike. A year after that you'll be telling me where I screwed up, again.
__________________
.
Never memorize something you can look up.
---Albert Einstein

Pay your debt, piratejohn.http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=949341
disston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2013, 08:53 PM   #43
Natter2002 OP
Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Minnesota
Oddometer: 39
Oil Pump screws

I was able to locate a used set of screws (25 cents each) from Hucky's. I never realized he had some used parts, so when I put my next order in I'll just add couple of those on. I got some good pictures of the difference in seals between the flywheel and Oil pump cover I will post for other first timers. Hell this site is so big maybe it's already been done. Yes, the clymer did say to put a gasket sealer on the oil pump cover o ring but if it's not needed then great. It also says to put it on the oil pan gasket. What are your thoughts there? My oil pan is off and awaiting it's gasket to come in the mail.

Till next time!
Natter2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2013, 09:23 PM   #44
supershaft
because I can
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Oddometer: 8,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natter2002 View Post
Is it F'd?, also on the oil pump cover (figured I'd ask otherwise I'll throw anything on it) Clymer says to use "three bond 1216" gasket sealer. How critical is that, can I just use anything? The reason I ask is it appears that it is not in production and I'm looking for an alternative I can tack on to an order of Honda Moly 60.
I can't see the important part of the flywheel: Where the RMS seats. Otherwise if looks good to me.

I don't use three bond or Honda moly. I use Durko and some old moly grease that I got from my dad when I moved out back in '82. I have been using the same tube since the mid seventies but I don't lube my splines unless I am in there for something else. 74,000 miles this time. My splines were fine. I lubed them when I put a close ratio gear set in years ago. They were dry as toast just like they always are unless you just over lubed them 1000 miles ago and are back in there to replace your ruined clutch friction plate. That or replacing the tranny rear cover for not tightening the drive shaft bolts tight enough. Lubing splines to 'get in tough with your machine' is a waste of time and usually an excuse to ignore what really needs attention on the bike but that often takes more know how than 'getting in touch'.

Get the right O-ring for the oil pump cover. You don't need any sealant but I do put Durko carefully around the outside of the cover where it won't get on the O-ring.

If I were you I would replace the clutch spring while I was in there. A fresh one in the earlier clutches makes all the difference in the world if you hammer your bike. Your clutch is much less likely to slip. Those older clutches need all the help they can get. The later ones are MUCH better.
supershaft is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2013, 09:35 PM   #45
Natter2002 OP
Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Minnesota
Oddometer: 39
Roger, my transmission splines were dry too, what I planned on lubing was my wheel/final drive splines. That was the project today (trying to clean them first, what a mess) and yes on the final drive I can certainly see the wear not visible in the photos I submitted. Thanks for the reply, Super!
Natter2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 10:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014