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Old 10-18-2013, 05:14 PM   #151
Lancey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garandman View Post
...I once contended that "The worst quality car you can buy today has higher quality than the best car you could buy ten years ago," and that turns out to be nearly true - it's like 11 or 12 years.

JD Power does initial quality and more-extended quality and owner satisfaction surveys. The big news this year is that GMC was #2, Chevrolet #5. Even the Europeans have two brands in the top 10, while three of the bottom five are Japanese, and Audi, BMW, Volkswagen and Volvo have moved up out of the basement to average.

20 of the 33 brands are +/- 10% of the industry average. Pretty remarkable.
I'd say that that survey has little to do with long term reliability.
Most of these reports are misleading anyway, how can you compare a Porsche that may see track days and Autocross to an Hyundai that only ever goes to the shops.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:01 PM   #152
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He was wrong to argue, yes. However, I've been in many cities where backtracking is near impossible. Ever driven through downtown Seattle? More than half of the streets are one way, and every block looks the same. Let me plop ya down there and see if you can find your way from point A to point B and back again. I have what I consider to be a pretty darn good sense of direction, and lived an hour North of Seattle for 20 years. I still get lost EVERY SINGLE time I go there.

Finding your way home alive isn't the same as finding your way home efficiently/quickly.
I found my way around Salt Lake City.

Finding you way home from 12 miles away should be a no brainer. This wasn't Seattle or any other loony bin.

lemme see did I go south or north.................be aware or be a dumbass.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:26 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Lancey View Post
I'd say that that survey has little to do with long term reliability.
Most of these reports are misleading anyway, how can you compare a Porsche that may see track days and Autocross to an Hyundai that only ever goes to the shops.
That is ridiculous, I doubt that many newer Porches see track days or autocross.
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:04 PM   #154
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fourteen years ago..

My BMW was made by Aprillia.. it has been beat on ,left outside all winter(s), dumped at highway speed,(rode it home) , and self maintained by a carpenter.

I press the button and it starts.. I have ridden the hell out of it for 60k and it still doesn't rattle, shake or slip. ( do though seem to burn up my fair share of VR's)
my friends with Japanese bikes can rival my bikes age, but not Mileage( all about 30k versus my 60k), and granted they run strong, they don't seem to cary weight as well and over washboard the sound like they are going to rattle apart.
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:50 PM   #155
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That is ridiculous, I doubt that many newer Porches see track days or autocross.
So you think sports cars are driven in the same manor as your average family car mmmmkay
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Old 10-19-2013, 12:41 AM   #156
garandman
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Originally Posted by Lancey View Post
I'd say that that survey has little to do with long term reliability.
Most of these reports are misleading anyway, how can you compare a Porsche that may see track days and Autocross to an Hyundai that only ever goes to the shops.
Um, yeah, it's an initial quality survey?

There are many more WRX's at those events than Porsches, and they still have higher reliability ratings. But Porsche isn't any worse than other European manufacturers. If Europeans designed Anvils, they would look wonderful, have five moving parts, and one of the parts would be back-ordered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnone View Post
That is ridiculous, I doubt that many newer Porches see track days or autocross.
I take my WRX to track days and autox and there is a decent representation - more than Corvettes, for example. Miatas are everywhere.

PCA also runs their own events. Unlike BMWCCA, who makes their events open to all (as long as you join their club), PCA locally is very snippy about letting other brands into their events.

I've had a chance to drive a Cayman in a track session at Lime Rock after a 911 and it's a wonderful car, a lot more manageable than the 911. The 911 is a ton of fun, though, and you can make it oversteer or understeer on command. They really are terrific cars to drive on a track and their owners are missing out.
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garandman screwed with this post 10-19-2013 at 12:57 AM
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Old 10-19-2013, 01:13 AM   #157
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So you think sports cars are driven in the same manor as your average family car mmmmkay
Around the manor I drive a Bentley.
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Old 10-19-2013, 01:22 AM   #158
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Around the manor I drive a Bentley.
Does Bentley have any sisters?
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Old 10-19-2013, 07:17 AM   #159
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The undeniable fact that is always left out of this argument whether it's Euro vs Ital. vs Jap or whatever is the disposable income of the buyer.People with more disposable income buy the more expensive and exotic toys and have the money to properly maintain them .Even someone who really does'nt have the income to afford one but has one is much more likely to appreciate the effort put forth to obtain it and will be much more aware of upkeep and maintenance because it has to last for them.This makes it even more amazing that the Jap bikes win this debate because more of these buyers are on a tighter budget,don't do regular maintenance and are'nt really as attached to their bikes. A lot of these bikes are not garaged or sheltered from weather or stored properly in the off months yet continue to perform well.Another argument ,but for the other side ,could be that expectations are probably higher for the more expensive brands ,thus a little more pissin and moanin about trivial problems.
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:49 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by baloneyskin daddy View Post
The undeniable fact that is always left out of this argument whether it's Euro vs Ital. vs Jap or whatever is the disposable income of the buyer.People with more disposable income buy the more expensive and exotic toys and have the money to properly maintain them .Even someone who really does'nt have the income to afford one but has one is much more likely to appreciate the effort put forth to obtain it and will be much more aware of upkeep and maintenance because it has to last for them.This makes it even more amazing that the Jap bikes win this debate because more of these buyers are on a tighter budget,don't do regular maintenance and are'nt really as attached to their bikes. A lot of these bikes are not garaged or sheltered from weather or stored properly in the off months yet continue to perform well.Another argument ,but for the other side ,could be that expectations are probably higher for the more expensive brands ,thus a little more pissin and moanin about trivial problems.
Exactly!

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Old 10-19-2013, 10:49 PM   #161
HanShotFirst
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In certain situations, they are very useful. Most of the time, they are not. I had never worked on a Bimmer before, but bought a crashed frame/engine from a local shop for $100 to steal the engine out of. Torx EVERYWHERE, and most were in places they had no reason to be, like holding the plastic sprocket cover on. Really? Torx? Just one more tool you have to throw in your bike's tool kit for roadside repairs. I also found a number of hex heads requiring the seldom used 9 and 11mm sockets. MAKE THEM 10 and 12 GOD DAMNIT.

Methinks torx and the like help BMW ensure people without a real toolbox take their bikes to the stealership for repairs (granted, most people shouldn't be allowed to work on their own motorcycles for their safety and ours), further adding to the cost of ownership.
BMW uses torch because it allows rapid assembly at the factory with less issues to slow down production. Like every other vehicle manufacturer, they don't give a rats ass about repair; that's for the mechanics to figure out.
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Old 10-19-2013, 10:59 PM   #162
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For my sport touring bike I ride a ZZR-1200 and I have to say BMW has nothing that can touch it. Yeah their pure sport bike can go a little faster, but it's a pure sport bike and therefore very uncomfortable. My ZZR has bar risers and that's all it took to do long fast rides with luggage or anything I want, and I have an engine with more HP and torque than any BMW sport tourer. I'll admit the Bimmers are MUCH better looking than my semi-homely ZZR but I have the better sport tourer. I don't care what anyone says the new 1600 is NOT a sport touring bike. It's a behemoth that wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell catching my ZZR in the twisties or the straights on its best day.

Still, for daily riders and ADV bikes, it's hard to beat the Bimmers.
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Old 10-20-2013, 06:49 AM   #163
Bar None
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So you think sports cars are driven in the same manor as your average family car mmmmkay
No, they are roaring around at 100 MPH in city traffic. My friend drives her Porsche back and forth to the gym.
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:01 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by HanShotFirst View Post
For my sport touring bike I ride a ZZR-1200 and I have to say BMW has nothing that can touch it. Yeah their pure sport bike can go a little faster, but it's a pure sport bike and therefore very uncomfortable. My ZZR has bar risers and that's all it took to do long fast rides with luggage or anything I want, and I have an engine with more HP and torque than any BMW sport tourer. I'll admit the Bimmers are MUCH better looking than my semi-homely ZZR but I have the better sport tourer. I don't care what anyone says the new 1600 is NOT a sport touring bike. It's a behemoth that wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell catching my ZZR in the twisties or the straights on its best day.

Still, for daily riders and ADV bikes, it's hard to beat the Bimmers.
I don't really have a comment on your post except to say thta "HanShotFirst" is a hilarious screen name.
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Old 10-20-2013, 08:06 AM   #165
garandman
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For my sport touring bike I ride a ZZR-1200 and I have to say BMW has nothing that can touch it. Yeah their pure sport bike can go a little faster, but it's a pure sport bike and therefore very uncomfortable. //.
Ever been to a track day with your "sports tourer?" I suspect not or you would not make that statement. Sport tourers are heavy, transition slowly, and lack cornering clearance. Any sport bike would destroy, and the S1000RR is probably top of the heap. BTW there is a mag editor who put helibars on an S1000RR and rode it cross country.

If you like your bike for your intended use, great. But sport bikes are a lot Faster, not a little faster. Ricer Flybys don't count.
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