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Old 10-09-2013, 09:11 AM   #751
Center-stand
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..

At this point all the evidence I have seen suggests the bikers had spent the day breaking laws, and generally terrorizing the public in businesses, on the streets and sidewalks, and the major highways.

I believe, without a doubt, that many motorists had made significant effort on many occasions to avoid accidents prior to the RR incident.

While I am well aware that we don't know everything, it is very difficult for me, knowing what we do know, to imagine that blame might rest on the RR driver for first act of interference.

If you and a small group of your friends try to forcefully move over or slow down or stop a legally operating vehicle, you are breaking the law, and no matter what ensues from that action, you would have to take responsibility for it. And, I believe if you continue to ride with that group you share in the responsibility if the road action turns into a beating when the vehicle stops.

We are seeing just over 6 minutes of what went on for maybe as long as ten minutes or more. Ten minutes of continual intimidation is a long time. Prior to being blocked, two violent attempts were made to enter the vehicle. I don't think most people would be clearer thinkers as time went on, just the opposite. Desperation sets in and we respond to fear, adrenalin, and instinct. RR driver tries to flee and is unsuccessful.

It is simply not Lien's fault.

..
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:23 AM   #752
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I've been away for a couple of weeks and saw this. Shocking.
Gives us bikers a bad name.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:30 AM   #753
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Originally Posted by Center-stand View Post
..

At this point all the evidence I have seen suggests the bikers had spent the day breaking laws, and generally terrorizing the public in businesses, on the streets and sidewalks, and the major highways.

I believe, without a doubt, that many motorists had made significant effort on many occasions to avoid accidents prior to the RR incident.

While I am well aware that we don't know everything, it is very difficult for me, knowing what we do know, to imagine that blame might rest on the RR driver for first act of interference.

If you and a small group of your friends try to forcefully move over or slow down or stop a legally operating vehicle, you are breaking the law, and no matter what ensues from that action, you would have to take responsibility for it. And, I believe if you continue to ride with that group you share in the responsibility if the road action turns into a beating when the vehicle stops.

We are seeing just over 6 minutes of what went on for maybe as long as ten minutes or more. Ten minutes of continual intimidation is a long time. Prior to being blocked, two violent attempts were made to enter the vehicle. I don't think most people would be clearer thinkers as time went on, just the opposite. Desperation sets in and we respond to fear, adrenalin, and instinct. RR driver tries to flee and is unsuccessful.

It is simply not Lien's fault.

..

Probably been posted here already..... more video evidence.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3cd_1380579664
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:33 AM   #754
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Sounds like the voice of reason.
Sounds to me like the AMA is afraid to stand up for right and wrong.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:37 AM   #755
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To me it's all very straight forward. If you snatch a purse on the street, it's a crime but seriously not that big a deal.

Normally the difference between manslaughter and murder is intent.

however if the victim of a purse snatching has a heart attack and dies, you get charged with murder, because you intended to commit a crime and that crime resulted in death.

You only ever intended to snatch a purse, and yet, it wasn't the old lady's fault that she had a weak heart. It's yours because death resulted from your own actions, predictably. Her death was a result of your actions, period.

In this case, a single biker getting injured seriously seems like a Pollyanna 'best case' result of *ALL* of the rider's actions that day. They are ALL responsible for what results from their decision to form a mob that recklessly disregarded the rules. I'm surprised there weren't multiple deaths or injuries of bikers pedestrians and drivers.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:39 AM   #756
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Originally Posted by Boatman View Post
Probably been posted here already..... more video evidence.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3cd_1380579664
Is it poor eyesite or do only about 10-20% of the bikes in view have visible license plates? Except the DR650.

The think I see in Boston all the time is a plate bent up so it's parallel to the road surface.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:42 AM   #757
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Originally Posted by garandman View Post
Is it poor eyesite or do only about 10-20% of the bikes in view have visible license plates? Except the DR650.

The think I see in Boston all the time is a plate bent up so it's parallel to the road surface.
No it's not poor eyesight, the cops impounded 55 bikes. There were lots with no plates.A lot with stolen plates. And a few quads and 2 strokes... They were doing something flat-out illegal and relying on numbers to get away with it. It's a gang, simple as that.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:04 AM   #758
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What color is the sky in your world??

Perhaps in your utopian society that may work....however we live in the real world. People are responsible for their actions and held accountable. You choose to work for someone, you play by their rules or quit....
Luckily I'm no slave, so it's none of the business of my employer how or whom I ride in my free time.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:07 AM   #759
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
Luckily I'm no slave, so it's none of the business of my employer how or whom I ride in my free time.
You ride people?
What is up with Germans doing weird shit?
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:27 AM   #760
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
Luckily I'm no slave, so it's none of the business of my employer how or whom I ride in my free time.
What you do in your free time isn't of your employer business...to an extent, anybody minimally intelligent understand that.

If the said behavior is directly against your job's ethical code or totally incompatible with your function, it becomes your employer's business.


1. You're a mechanic and you like to drink beer with your brother and your (17 years old) nephew around a campfire during the week-end

2. You're a high school teacher and you like to drink beer with your minor students around a campfire during the week-end


If you don't see the difference, you're either stupid or acting in bad faith.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:07 PM   #761
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There is a lot to chew on and consider over this entire incident.

This ride is mob mentality demonstrated at it's best...the group behavior sinks to the lowest level of the individuals...and some of these mutts are the lowest based on documented prior history.

I find it amazing that some feel that a LEO could be an active participant in illegal acts "off duty" and that any job related repercussions from such acts would be "immoral" to quote the OP. Sorry to disagree, the immorallity I see is the mindset that you are free to break the law on "the weekend", then badge up and enforce the law when your working. Sorry...anyone in LE with that mindset needs to be removed.

I'll give the riders some benefit of the doubt and assume that they thought they were just joining in a group ride...like the ones often posted in the regionals here. Any rational person riding in this event as based on the video available, especially the video taken of the ride PRIOR to the part involving the final conflict with the RR should have realized that this ride was a mob ride...and once that became clear...pull out dry if your a responsible, rational citizen...otherwise you just another mutt.

I would like to hear more about what the ON DUTY NYPD did about this ride. The number of 911 calls & motor and foot patrol officers seeing it, should have caused a organized police enforcement reaction to this ride. A district or division duty commander should have been on top of this based on it's scale and disruption to public safety and activly directing response and resources to address it. I have yet to hear about any organized directed action before the final RR events...I can't belive that they just monitored this mess and let it go on.

The sad part is that some unfortunate MC rider in the next few days, weeks, months...will likely be involved in an ACCIDENTAL traffic conflict somewhere...and the public fear and loathing over this incident will emerge and the MC rider will get run over - and the auto drivers's defense is now ready made. In the end...the ones who rode this ride and drove like asses got to ride, and some will pay a high price...but I think the rest of us will be paying part of the bill too...
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:28 PM   #762
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Originally Posted by FAW3 View Post
the immorallity I see is the mindset that you are free to break the law on "the weekend", then badge up and enforce the law when your working.
Exactly. It really is as simple as that.

But the problem with WR is that despite his young age he knows everything, and from there follows, that he can never be told anything, by anybody.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:30 PM   #763
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I'm sure there are many LEOs who participate in many sorts of legal motorcycle events. Just as I bet there are former felons participating. No issue with them involved in legal activities. But for off duty cops to participate in the activities, riding styles, group actions, of a group/gang that has made their actions public on social media is reprehensible.

As to what people do away from work as thier sole business, true, if legal and reasonably socially acceptable. But some activites, if it causes you to personally feel, "I wonder how my employer, family or spouse would feel about this," is probably cause to use rationale judgement to NOT do it.

An employer in New York, or anywhere, can certainly use social media, as many now do already, to research current and potential employees activities away from work. Rest assured these idiots would not be at the top of the hiring list given thier actions. I sure as hell wouldn't hire one of them.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:39 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
I'm sure there are many LEOs who participate in many sorts of legal motorcycle events. Just as I bet there are former felons participating. No issue with them involved in legal activities. But for off duty cops to participate in the activities, riding styles, group actions, of a group/gang that has made their actions public on social media is reprehensible.

As to what people do away from work as thier sole business, true, if legal and reasonably socially acceptable. But some activites, if it causes you to personally feel, "I wonder how my employer, family or spouse would feel about this," is probably cause to use rationale judgement to NOT do it.

An employer in New York, or anywhere, can certainly use social media, as many now do already, to research current and potential employees activities away from work. Rest assured these idiots would not be at the top of the hiring list given thier actions. I sure as hell wouldn't hire one of them.
Fortunately for them, the demand for sandwich makers and car wash "technicians" will likely still be high when they are released.

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Old 10-09-2013, 12:41 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by FAW3 View Post
I would like to hear more about what the ON DUTY NYPD did about this ride. The number of 911 calls & motor and foot patrol officers seeing it, should have caused a organized police enforcement reaction to this ride. A district or division duty commander should have been on top of this based on it's scale and disruption to public safety and activly directing response and resources to address it. I have yet to hear about any organized directed action before the final RR events...I can't belive that they just monitored this mess and let it go on.
As I understand it:

1. Reports indicate NYPD were aware of the event and had roadblocks set up on approaches to Times Square (the destination). They arrested 16 and confiscated 55 bikes at these roadblocks.

2. NYPD has published statements that they have a non-pursuit policy in regard to stunters. They do not respond to 911 calls regarding this activity to ensure the safety of other drivers, pedestrians, and of the stunters themselves.

Go figure.
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