ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-16-2013, 09:19 AM   #1006
rocker59
diplomatico di moto
 
rocker59's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: The Trans-Mississippi
Oddometer: 15,634
one more reason to leave the GoPro at home!
__________________
Rocker59 (aka guzzimike), Aux Arcs (NW Arkansas)
Moto Guzzi Sport 1100
IBA #24873
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt
rocker59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 02:14 PM   #1007
kwisn
One Happy Dog
 
kwisn's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: Griffonderosa Dog Ranch The Rock, WA
Oddometer: 9,195
In BC I think it's 40 kilometers over and they impound your ride.
My nephew threw me the keys to his RS4 Audi last August and imparted that bit of knowledge knowing how I drive/ride.

Yep, 40k.
http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing...le-impoundment
__________________
kwisn

who's the idiot now. idiot. nachtflug
kwisn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 02:19 PM   #1008
kwisn
One Happy Dog
 
kwisn's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: Griffonderosa Dog Ranch The Rock, WA
Oddometer: 9,195
Some of those stunters were these guys.
https://www.facebook.com/frontlinesoldiersmc

To each their own but having lost friends and relatives who WERE soldiers on the frontlines I'm not really warm and fuzzy about their choice of monikers.
__________________
kwisn

who's the idiot now. idiot. nachtflug
kwisn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 02:20 PM   #1009
devo2002
-Devo
 
devo2002's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Oddometer: 3,811
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
This thread has become silly.

You guys need to get out for a ride.
This sums it up. At a certain point there is nothing further to talk about, yet the thread continues to grow, as does the animosity.
__________________
2014 DL650 Vstrom
devo2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 02:35 PM   #1010
joexr
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: S.E.
Oddometer: 3,773
Laugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by devo2002 View Post
This sums it up. At a certain point there is nothing further to talk about, yet the thread continues to grow, as does the animosity.
And the piles.
joexr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 03:20 PM   #1011
Kommando
Grumpy Young Man
 
Kommando's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Spacecoaster FL
Oddometer: 7,079
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwisn View Post
Some of those stunters were these guys.
https://www.facebook.com/frontlinesoldiersmc

To each their own but having lost friends and relatives who WERE soldiers on the frontlines I'm not really warm and fuzzy about their choice of monikers.
Every gansta that picks up a gat these days seems to think they're a soldja...until the outside temps hit -10F or 130F, or it rains for 20 days straight at 35-40F. Then they don't seem to wanna play soldja no mo.

__________________
Some are guard dogs of the flock. Some herders, search/rescue, or companions. We Devildogs are those, and also retrievers. Hell is our blazing dogpark, our frigid swimming hole. The fallen are our tennis balls. We don't leave the fallen behind, even if the master has to bring them home for us. Semper Fi, my friends.
Kommando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 05:10 PM   #1012
xymotic
Beastly Adventurer
 
xymotic's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: Federal Way, WA
Oddometer: 8,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwisn View Post
Some of those stunters were these guys.
https://www.facebook.com/frontlinesoldiersmc

To each their own but having lost friends and relatives who WERE soldiers on the frontlines I'm not really warm and fuzzy about their choice of monikers.
At least two of the COPS were in that group.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Sean
Oh for ***k's sake Aaron. Please link us to my fascist, racist or homophobic posts.
"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either."
Albert Einstein


Baja trip to the tip
6:10 to Yuma
trials and tribulations in the Mojave
Baja Blitz Yard sale
View Current Location via Spot Tracker
xymotic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 05:12 PM   #1013
xymotic
Beastly Adventurer
 
xymotic's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: Federal Way, WA
Oddometer: 8,367
Did they catch the one suspect that was reported to be 'in hiding?'

Has anyone seen if he was the guy that got arraigned the same time as the undercover guy? It seems like so far everyone has surrendered themselves with a laywer, right? Did anyone actually get a door kicked in? Reggie Chance maybe?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Sean
Oh for ***k's sake Aaron. Please link us to my fascist, racist or homophobic posts.
"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either."
Albert Einstein


Baja trip to the tip
6:10 to Yuma
trials and tribulations in the Mojave
Baja Blitz Yard sale
View Current Location via Spot Tracker
xymotic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2013, 09:21 PM   #1014
kwisn
One Happy Dog
 
kwisn's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: Griffonderosa Dog Ranch The Rock, WA
Oddometer: 9,195
Quote:
Originally Posted by xymotic View Post
Did they catch the one suspect that was reported to be 'in hiding?'

Has anyone seen if he was the guy that got arraigned the same time as the undercover guy? It seems like so far everyone has surrendered themselves with a laywer, right? Did anyone actually get a door kicked in? Reggie Chance maybe?
No way they took in Chance without a major fight on their hands. That guys BAD! He musta turned himself in.
__________________
kwisn

who's the idiot now. idiot. nachtflug
kwisn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 07:41 AM   #1015
cliffy109
Beastly Adventurer
 
cliffy109's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Spotsylvania, VA
Oddometer: 1,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwisn View Post
Some of those stunters were these guys.
https://www.facebook.com/frontlinesoldiersmc

To each their own but having lost friends and relatives who WERE soldiers on the frontlines I'm not really warm and fuzzy about their choice of monikers.
One of their photos attempts to make a point by saying "The neglect to mention all the good we do for all of our surrounding communities." Really? What good is that? Seriously. Stunter clubs are not exactly community service organizations now are they? Can any one of them actually make an honest argument that they provide more good than the destruction they create? Donating $30 to a charity for a fallen fellow stunter doesn't qualify either.
cliffy109 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 07:54 AM   #1016
garandman
Beastly Adventurer
 
garandman's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Dorchester, MA / Goshen, NH
Oddometer: 6,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffy109 View Post
One of their photos attempts to make a point by saying "The neglect to mention all the good we do for all of our surrounding communities." Really? What good is that? Seriously. er.
most of the pictures I saw in their profile were parties.

Must all be find raisers....
__________________
2012 WR250R, 2009 TW200, 2008 Tiger 1050 ABS, 2008 CRF100F

“The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without.” ― Dwight D. Eisenhower
garandman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 10:29 AM   #1017
rxcrider
Beastly Adventurer
 
rxcrider's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: N Ridgeville OH
Oddometer: 1,295
I received the following PM from an individual here who I had no previous communication with. They obviously didn't want to be involved with the thread, so I'll leave the screen name out, but I think it is an interesting conversation that should be out in the open, not a one on one with someone I don't know.
__________________________________________________ ______________

PM - RE: anyone here who feels that Mr. Lien was in the wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Quote:
Originally Posted by rxcrider View Post
If there is anyone here who feels that Mr. Lien was in the wrong and that the people riding motorcycles and ATVs aren't getting a fair shake, plaese speak up so we can discuss that. Otherwise, we are just finding reasons to argue with each other which have nothing to do with the incident.
Well said, but at this point it is a bit late for that.

I'm NOT with the biker gang, but as you can see the discussion never really got larger than 2 dozen individuals, who after agreeing with eachother over and over, at the end manaaged to turn even on eachother.

So yes, I have been following this thread from the beginning and the amount of intolerance and hateful behaviour has really opened my mind about some motorcycle riders.

I'm also deeply disappointed in the moderators of Adventure Rider as well. I guess I'm not reading enough in the JoMama and alike discussion threads, but I clearly think that if these threads can not be kept civilized, they should not be offered.

BTW: YES! I can think of dozens of ways the RR driver could have easily defused the situation BEFORE it even ever started. One of the most obvious one: Lien could have simply gave them a thumbs up and let them pass. I doubt they would attacked a cardriver that they believed was one of their fellow biker, who could not make it to their ride and was riding with his family instead. Or do you think they would have attacked Bike Builder Jessy James (from the TV show). He is driving a Range Rover as well.
To this, I responded:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rxcrider
Not sure exactly what was going on with Cruze and Lien before Cruze pulled in front and brake checked him. From the video it seems like the riders were just passing him before Cruze pulled close on the driver's side. Why he pulled up to the driver's door or What prompted him to pull in front, then slow abruptly, only he knows. Without that knowledge, I don't know if Lien was a target to begin with or if he turned himself into one.

As far as giving them a thumbs up to avoid the confrontation goes, I'd hate to advocate that the only way to stay safe is to act like you approve these idiots taking over the streets and ignoring all traffic laws. Public encouragement is the last thing they deserve.

I have no idea why Cruze picked the RR To stop. As such, I don't know if they would have treated Jesse James this way. Asking how they would treat a celebrity bad boy who builds customs seems kind of like asking what if there were guns present or used.
___________________________________________
I got the following response:

PM - RE: RE: anyone here who feels that Mr. Lien was in the wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Quote:
Originally Posted by rxcrider
As far as giving them a thumbs up to avoid the confrontation goes, I'd hate to advocate that the only way to stay safe is to act like you approve these idiots taking over the streets and ignoring all traffic laws. Public encouragement is the last thing they deserve.
True, but one has to know when it is time acting on principle and assert ones rights and when it is not. In this situation it was clearly not the right thing.

It will be interesting to find out what the court rules.

Ironically a favorable ruling to Lien might set a devistating presedence for injuring otherwise law abiding bikers under a false pretense.

But I don't think a court will give Lien an easy pass. Indeed I think he will have an uphill battle.

Think of this: a large group of angry Occupy Wallstreet People surround a Range Rover, pound on the windows, damage the car, slash the tires. Will a court side with a driver who runs over them to escape the situation?

Additionally, in both cases, presence of a large group being the agressor is actually another important factor. Nowadays people rarely have to fear bodily harm caused by LARGE groups (unless of course they run over someone in the group).
I just sent this reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rxcrider
I'll reply to your comments one by one in the main thread, but won't disclose your name. I don't see the point of this as a one on one conversation with someone I don't know.
_____________________________________

So, here are my thoughts on the last PM I received:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
True, but one has to know when it is time acting on principle and assert ones rights and when it is not. In this situation it was clearly not the right thing.
I saw nothing that suggested Mr. Lien was trying to assert his rights or act on principle. I saw a group of riders surround the Rover on the highway. Most of them appeared to be passing him in close quarters. I saw Mr. Cruz pull up next to Mr. Lien's driver's door. I could not see what gestures or words transpired between the two of them so I’m not going to speculate that Mr. Lien provoked Mr. Cruz. I then saw Mr. Cruz pull in front of the Rover and slow abruptly. Mr. Lien apparently failed to avoid impacting Mr. Cruz, but the impact wasn't sufficient to cause Mr. Cruz to fall over. Given the proximity of motorcycles behind him, I would have been watching my mirrors and been hesitant to slam on the brakes for fear of being hit from behind. I don't know if that was true for him, but it would have been for me. From the video, I couldn't say for certain that there was an impact, but given the closing speeds, I think it is likely. Let's call it a light tap. Mr. Lien then stopped and instead of being able to move both vehicles to the apron, check for damage and discuss calling the police, motorcycles surrounded the Rover and their operators began attacking it, including slicing a tire to deflate it. Unless you can tell me what Mr. Lien did to Mr. Cruz to provoke the incident, I can't accept that that he should have done something else to defuse the situation. Maybe he smiled and waved, I don’t know, do you? Once they started trying to disable his vehicle and bang on windows, it was game on and yes, he should have the right to defend himself and his family.

Furthermore, letting people do whatever they want because we want to avoid the conflict / don't want to get involved is what has led to this sort of behavior becoming widespread. The police can’t be everywhere and people need to communicate their disapproval of anti-socail behavior if you ever want society to improve. Turning a blind eye or encouraging bad behavior because it may be safer is choosing to make decisions based on fear and is something I will never advocate. If you ride like an ass and I shake my head at you to communicate my disgust, it doesn't give you the right to brake check me and cause an accident. If I don’t communicate at all or encourage your riding because I fear you might not take it well when I express my true feelings, I am just adding to the notion that what you are doing is right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
It will be interesting to find out what the court rules.

Ironically a favorable ruling to Lien might set a devistating presedence for injuring otherwise law abiding bikers under a false pretense.

But I don't think a court will give Lien an easy pass. Indeed I think he will have an uphill battle.
I hope the prosecutor doesn't charge Mr. Lien with anything. If there are civil suits brought forth by injured parties, I will gladly donate to Mr. Lien's defense fund. If he is found guilty of anything when he did not initiate the attack and acted in self defense, it will be a sad day. It is unfortunate that Mr. Mieses was severely injured, but Mr. Lien took the best option he saw for escape rather than risk his life or that of his family. He did not retaliate and start running down every thug he could. He also didn't run anybody else over when I think he should have and ended up being dragged from his car because of it. Mr. Mieses made the poor decision to be part of a mob and is paying the price, but that doesn't mean Mr. Lien needs to be blamed for it.

As for fearing a precedent of not prosecuting someone who is being attacked for defending himself or not finding him guilty because he acted in self defense just because the injured party arrived on a motorcycle, you need to take the motorcycles out of the equation. This isn't a simple traffic accident or an altercation between two drivers. This is a mob which decided to attack a car and its occupants after one member of the mob caused a collision with the car. You could rewrite this story with a bunch of Prius drivers and a semi. The vehicles aren't important. It is self defense in the face of mob aggression. Might police targeting of motorcyclists increase because of this incident? Sure, and that is unfortunate. If we didn't have gangs masquerading as motorcycle clubs and idiots thinking they can do whatever they want if they ride a motorcycle, that wouldn't be the case. The fact that the AMA didn't make a firm statement that all the actions of these jerks was unacceptable and that the motorcycling community was disgusted by the way these thugs were riding, let alone causing a collision and attacking the motorist involved is equally unfortunate. If we want respect from society and law enforcement, maybe we should call a spade a spade and stop sympathizing with thugs on bikes. Just because they were sitting on a seat doesn't make them motorcyclists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Think of this: a large group of angry Occupy Wallstreet People surround a Range Rover, pound on the windows, damage the car, slash the tires. Will a court side with a driver who runs over them to escape the situation?
They should side with the person being attacked unless that person provoked the attack with prior violence and they are stopping the vehicle to prevent additional injuries / deaths. Why don't you tell me when it IS ok to defend yourself by driving through a mob of driving someone over. When they cut the tire making escape difficult? When they break the window making me feel more vulnerable or possibly injure me with broken glass? When they jam a piece of rebar through a rim opening to disable the vehicle? When they dive under the car and I fear they may be cutting a fuel or brake line? When they rock the car so much I fear it may be tipped on the side? When they grab for the controls on my motorcycle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous
Additionally, in both cases, presence of a large group being the agressor is actually another important factor. Nowadays people rarely have to fear bodily harm caused by LARGE groups (unless of course they run over someone in the group).
What?! Go show me the statistic that says mob actions in the USA don't usually turn violent like they used to.
__________________
'95+'95+'96 BMW R1100RS/RSL
AMA, OMTA (ohio organization), BRC, BMWMOA
rxcrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 11:58 AM   #1018
SgtDuster
Beastly Adventurer
 
SgtDuster's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Oddometer: 3,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by rxcrider View Post
The fact that the AMA didn't make a firm statement that all the actions of these jerks was unacceptable and that the motorcycling community was disgusted by the way these thugs were riding, let alone causing a collision and attacking the motorist involved is equally unfortunate. If we want respect from society and law enforcement, maybe we should call a spade a spade and stop sympathizing with thugs on bikes. Just because they were sitting on a seat doesn't make them motorcyclists.
I couldn't agree more.

As I previously said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtDuster View Post
Agreed.


I personally (even if I'm not 'merican, this kind of behavior can and will spread) would like to see all the major (legit) rider associations stand up and call a press conference where they:

1. Dissociate themselves from and condemn this kind of behavior
2. Ask the population to stand up with them
3. Officially ask the city/state/whatever to do something to stop this


I'm not naive enough to think that it will change something in short term but it will send a clear and positive message at least.


I don't like the "what can we do anyway?" kind of argument. We CAN do something if we really want and act now to change the whole thing in the long run.
__________________
2010 Buell Ulysses
1984 Suzuki GR650 "Tempter"
SgtDuster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 02:40 PM   #1019
Andyvh1959
Cheesehead Klompen
 
Andyvh1959's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Da frozen tundra eh? 1.5 mile west of Lambeau
Oddometer: 667
I can appreciate all the discussion about who was right, wrong, acting justly for self defense, over-reacting, whatever.

I have been on 100's of group rides, probably done thousands of miles of group rides in 22+ years with the cycle club I am in. In all those years and rides, I can't say we had one instance that would have provoked us to act similarly to that shown on the video.

More to the real point though, on all those group rides we never rode like the dick-heads of today; all over the road, swarming around cars, riding in the wrong lanes, on sidewalks, wheelying in packs, lane splitting (where it is not legal), PURPOSELY holding up traffic in order to horde the road for their "watch ME!" antics. If these groups were really riding like normal citizens, a lot of this whole issue would never have happened.

But then,....that makes for a pretty boring YouTube GoPro video post, doesn't it? Just a bunch of bikes riding normally in traffic, ho hum. HEY!! Nobody is watching US!!! Better do something about it!
__________________
When life throws you a curve,.....lean into it!
42+ year rider, 22+ year MSF Coach, Street, Dirt, Ice, ride em all!
Andyvh1959 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 06:53 PM   #1020
xymotic
Beastly Adventurer
 
xymotic's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: Federal Way, WA
Oddometer: 8,367
Well, if true that Lein's Uncle is high up in NYPD,

A) should be easy to check

B) Further proof that the gang messed with the wrong guy.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Sean
Oh for ***k's sake Aaron. Please link us to my fascist, racist or homophobic posts.
"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either."
Albert Einstein


Baja trip to the tip
6:10 to Yuma
trials and tribulations in the Mojave
Baja Blitz Yard sale
View Current Location via Spot Tracker
xymotic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 05:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014