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Old 10-30-2013, 08:45 AM   #1066
xymotic
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Hmmm, so I have a "problem" with ATV's in General because some in a big gang decided to ride one one city streets drunk?

Hey Wraith... Buh Bye. Like others have said I've wasted far to much time trying to decode your random words. It's like talking to a dolphin.
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Old 10-30-2013, 09:52 AM   #1067
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ATVs on the Road.

Part of the communication issues might be one of perspective.

1. In North America for the most part ATVs are not permitted on public roads. In some places its OK to cross a road. In some rural areas its permitted to drive up the highway. In a few small towns near trail heads and such ATVers are permitted to drive in to get gas, go to a restaurant etc.

2. In most of the European Union you can use an ATV on public roads if it has all the usual safety equipment, brake lights, turn signals etc. for example have a look at this European spec 8X8 Argo http://argoatv.com/products/8x8-700-hd-eu

In either place I'm sure the local authorities would frown upon Mad Max mob style pack rides with stunting, especially while intoxicated.

I don't know off hand what stunts one can pull in an Argo. I'm thinking given enough alcohol hooligans will find a way!
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Old 10-30-2013, 10:49 AM   #1068
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Originally Posted by xymotic View Post
Hmmm, so I have a "problem" with ATV's in General because some in a big gang decided to ride one one city streets drunk?
Then sorry for you too.

@Bike Nomad
Partly you may be right. But more important: I don't decide what pisses me off by looking at laws but by thinking about what is morally right.
Considering cultural differences of course is much likely to help with this decision.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:04 PM   #1069
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Originally Posted by xymotic View Post

Hey Wraith... Buh Bye. Like others have said I've wasted far to much time trying to decode your random words. It's like talking to a dolphin.
Actually dolphins are intelligent animals, Wraith Rider on the other hand...
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:13 PM   #1070
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Yes,

Children don't yet have the experiences and wisdom to make intelligent decisions. Some people have a hard time leaving childhood behind.
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Actually dolphins are intelligent animals, Wraith Rider on the other hand...
I dunno whether to laugh or cry reading some of his/her posts. My children were NEVER this clueless. This poster seems more likely to be either a) functionally illiterate in English or b) has a substance abuse problem.

Not that there is anything wrong with a person dealing with either of those situations, but, they should think twice before arguing on an English language website.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:22 PM   #1071
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I dunno whether to laugh or cry reading some of his/her posts. My children were NEVER this clueless. This poster seems more likely to be either a) functionally illiterate in English or b) has a substance abuse problem.

Not that there is anything wrong with a person dealing with either of those situations, but, they should think twice before arguing on an English language website.
Actually on German language websites the inmates have the same issues of not understanding as you have.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:30 PM   #1072
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Actually on German language websites the inmates have the same issues of not understanding as you have.
Hmmm, wonder what the common thread is?
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:30 PM   #1073
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Then perhaps the source is the issue?

Wraith lives over on the east side. We in the NRW have been paying for their roads and such for the last 20 years. They don't actually know what it means to be fully responsible for one's self, so it is pretty easy to talk from a high horse. I mean, from communism to reparations overnight. Never a moment without the state being in control.

And yes, over here, you can plate pretty much anything with the right number of lights on it. It's rather funny to see what the TÜV lets through.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:30 PM   #1074
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That is not surprising.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:35 PM   #1075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bike Nomad View Post
Part of the communication issues might be one of perspective.

1. In North America for the most part ATVs are not permitted on public roads. In some places its OK to cross a road. In some rural areas its permitted to drive up the highway. In a few small towns near trail heads and such ATVers are permitted to drive in to get gas, go to a restaurant etc.

2. In most of the European Union you can use an ATV on public roads if it has all the usual safety equipment, brake lights, turn signals etc. for example have a look at this European spec 8X8 Argo http://argoatv.com/products/8x8-700-hd-eu

In either place I'm sure the local authorities would frown upon Mad Max mob style pack rides with stunting, especially while intoxicated.

I don't know off hand what stunts one can pull in an Argo. I'm thinking given enough alcohol hooligans will find a way!
Sink it or flip it, that's about all the stuntz it is capable of!
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:45 PM   #1076
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Wraith -

Without starting a pointless argument, what exactly is your take on this type of riding? I'm fairly certain this wouldn't be tolerated in Germany. These riders have more disregard for traffic laws than the French in Paris at 17:00 on a Friday. In addition, being drunk and riding is illegal, stupid, and dangerous. How much trouble would you be in for driving drunk in Germany? A whole lot more than over here! Many of these bikes and ATVs aren't registered for street use and some of them are stolen. The riders often don't have a motorcycle license or a driver's license at all. Some of the riders in these large groups try to intimidate car drivers or get into accidents to try and get the car driver to pay them money. In the case that started the whole discussion, one rider caused the accident and when the car driver stopped, he was surrounded and members of the group started damaging his car including slashing a tire. You know the rest of that story, but it started with these thugs intimidating a driver, causing an accident and attacking his car.

This is a complete mess of illegal behavior ranging from minor traffic violations to bike theft to extortion and assault.

I have no use for the riders on stolen bikes. We work hard to pay for our bikes and having them stolen isn't cool. When you see an enduro bike with a bash plate and hand guards running around in New York without a tag and the rider not wearing a helmet, I'll bet a paycheck it was stolen.

Riding / driving an unlicensed vehicle without an operator's license on public roads that my tax and license fees payed for means they are getting a free ride on my hard earned money. Riding / driving is a privilege, not a right. Living in Germany, you should understand that better than most Americans. We don't go through the training that a German driver does. It isn't like it is hard or expensive to get a license.

Blatantly ignoring traffic laws, especially in large groups causes delays and safety issues for other traffic. Beyond that, it is just rude behavior. Stunting is fine and dandy on a closed course, you may not even feel that it isn't morally wrong on a public road, regardless of the law. In heavy traffic in a city it is just a bad idea. Couple the stunting with running red lights, riding on sidewalks, riding on the wrong side of the road, excessive speed on crowded streets, etc. and you just have a mess.

Intimidating other road users by surrounding their cars, blocking roads, causing accidents, attacking cars, etc. is rude, illegal and causes other drivers to pay attention to these hooligans instead of driving safely. The way these mobs act is reflected in the attitudes of the average person toward motorcyclists in general. I have seen more than one post stating that all motorcyclists are a problem and that motorcycles should be banned. Like it or not, the way these gangs ride will have an impact on the rest of us. When you tell someone you are a motorcyclist, is the video of these riders surrounding Mr. Lien's car and causing an accident the first thing you want people to associate you with?

Very few ATVs are registered for the street in the US. Most don't have turn signals or brake lights. Some don't have head lights or tail lights. The have no place on the street, especially in city traffic. If you want to make the case that they should be equipped for street use and be legal, I won't particularly argue because they aren't all that different from something like a Can Am Spider, but as things are, they shouldn't be on the road.

So, there is my take on why I have a problem with these rides and the riders involved. What is yours?

And since atomicalex brought it up, where are you from? He may be spot on.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:45 PM   #1077
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some threads just need to die
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:57 PM   #1078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
Judge me by my age, do you? Hmm? Hmm.
That is funny right there. Yoda quote.

The rest of the back and forth doesn't make much sense.
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Old 10-30-2013, 02:04 PM   #1079
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
Wraith lives over on the east side. We in the NRW have been paying for their roads and such for the last 20 years.
So it's YOU we should be angry at for having such shitty roads...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rxcrider View Post
How much trouble would you be in for driving drunk in Germany?
Why are some of you making that a Germany USA thing? There are German politicans who dare to state that driving after drinking a litre of beer over a few hours is completely acceptable. There are German politicans as well who would tell you the only way to go is absolutely without the smallest drop of alcohol no matter that a small amount is completely legal.

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In the case that started the whole discussion, one rider caused the accident and when the car driver stopped, he was surrounded and members of the group started damaging his car including slashing a tire.
Is there new evidence around, proving that? We can't see what you say on the video.

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Originally Posted by rxcrider View Post
I have no use for the riders on stolen bikes.
However, I most likely wouldn't want to permanently disable someone who stole from me.

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Originally Posted by rxcrider View Post
Riding / driving an unlicensed vehicle without an operator's license on public roads that my tax and license fees payed for means they are getting a free ride on my hard earned money.
Well, I did drive/ride licensed vehicles without operator's license on public roads, payed by my parents' taxes, before being allowed to have a license. So I don't want to blame someone. No harm done, no reason to be angry.

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Riding / driving is a privilege, not a right. Living in Germany, you should understand that better than most Americans.
Dunno 'bout the US, but in Germany it IS a right - though the same argument is going on in Germany.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rxcrider View Post
The way these mobs act is reflected in the attitudes of the average person toward motorcyclists in general. I have seen more than one post stating that all motorcyclists are a problem and that motorcycles should be banned. Like it or not, the way these gangs ride will have an impact on the rest of us. When you tell someone you are a motorcyclist, is the video of these riders surrounding Mr. Lien's car and causing an accident the first thing you want people to associate you with?
I blame the someones with prejudices. See, I don't judge someone by his age or color or vehicle or sexuality or nation. If someone does, it tells me something about him. And it saves me a lot of lifetime if the first thing someone says is: "You're a biker/ATV rider so your stupid."
And I know for sure: There are more than enough guys who would want to get me banned for what I am doing on the road. So for me it would be immoral to blame someone for some harmless stunts, filtering, running red lights etc.
Recently I parked my bike and walked back over a closed railway passing ("Bahnübergang"? having a look at dict.leo on my out of date smartphone while posting isn't fun) to have a talk with the rider accompanying me - alone for that some would want to take my licence from me.
Others don't think that going 100mph could be done safely, even on the Autobahn, while I do 150mph nearly every day.
How could I blame someone for some harmless stunts, filtering, running red lights etc.?

For what it's worth: I do everything necessary I can, to get home alive. But that says EVERYONE.

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Originally Posted by rxcrider View Post
And since atomicalex brought it up, where are you from? He may be spot on.
Near Leipzig, Sachsen. With the streets being as they are, SUVs, dirt bikes and ATVs are perfect city vehicles. When I return from holidays I might show you a video on my Youtube channel named somewhat like "main street vs. sport suspension" showing my sister's roadster after the last winter. Myself I'm adding an ATV to my bike on Tuesday.
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Old 10-30-2013, 05:17 PM   #1080
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
Why are some of you making that a Germany USA thing? There are German politicans who dare to state that driving after drinking a litre of beer over a few hours is completely acceptable. There are German politicans as well who would tell you the only way to go is absolutely without the smallest drop of alcohol no matter that a small amount is completely legal.
You didn't answer the question. What would happen to you if you were caught operating a vehicle on public roads while intoxicated?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
Dunno 'bout the US, but in Germany it IS a right - though the same argument is going on in Germany.
Then why is it required for drivers to be licensed in Germany? Freedom of assembly is a right, yet there is no test that one must pass before being able to gather with friends.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
How could I blame someone for some harmless stunts, filtering, running red lights etc.?
You will if you ever lose a loved one because of the actions of somone who is ignoring their (legal and moral) responsibility to drive safely.

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