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Old 01-18-2014, 09:27 PM   #601
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Big dollars, big big dollars

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Originally Posted by Critt View Post
In my opinion, this race should be about the pilot, navigator, and mechanics... not about corporations controlling their pawns.
That might be your opinion but if you ever stood beside the BMW bivouac you would change that opinion very quickly.

Some one asked me about half way through 2012 Dakar what I thought? My answer was 'it is a circus with a whole lot of clowns with too much money!'

It is absolutely staggering beyond believe the money people and infrastructure that the BMW Mini team had and it would have been even bigger this year. I also saw the VW team in 2008 when it was cancelled at the start and that was again indescribable!

It makes F1 look like a weekend picnic.

It is a MASSIVE injection of corporations funds and subsequently they have every right to say how it goes.....unfortunately. But that also is what makes the race what it is.

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PS there was on of those massive MAN 6 wheel trucks fully kitted with racing suspension and everything and it was just for the Shock Absorbers for the minis, that was it....then there was another and another and another....and another for wheels and it went on and on and on, 50 people on the team, 3 chefs, 5 masseurs etc etc etc. You simply cannot understand from the TV or even F5 the enormity of this event unless you are standing right there and even then it just does not sink in. Your eyes are not big enough!
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Old 01-19-2014, 03:25 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by ArthDuro View Post
in this race and that there is a long history of exactly this kind of thing so it is really to be expected even though a lot of us have a problem with the sporting aspect of this. Sven didn't do anything out of the ordinary they just bodged the public relations part of it and put a few racers in rather awkward positions and this in turn left a few of them rather sour.
I agree - I really don't understand why 'the word' even came out about team orders this year? - I guess Peterhansel was properly pissed at them [denying him his 12th win] and spilt the beans...

Most years it would just that one of them 'had a problem' for a few minutes to restore the desired order...

This year it was a PR disaster.

Jx
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Old 01-19-2014, 05:11 AM   #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
I agree - I really don't understand why 'the word' even came out about team orders this year? - I guess Peterhansel was properly pissed at them [denying him his 12th win] and spilt the beans...

Most years it would just that one of them 'had a problem' for a few minutes to restore the desired order...

This year it was a PR disaster.

Jx

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Old 01-19-2014, 06:28 AM   #604
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awesome post thanks for putting things into perspective
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Old 01-19-2014, 07:40 AM   #605
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When the team orders were given, all I was hoping was that the fake winner would breakdown before the finish line, and the second would let a few cars pass him as a protest.
Also, bmw should use a different body for that tube framed vehicle, like a X5 or at least a X3, that mini bodywork is just out of place in that race, it's like decorating a Dakar bike with a Vespa bodywork.
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Old 01-19-2014, 08:51 AM   #606
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Old 01-19-2014, 08:56 AM   #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereneT View Post
When the team orders were given, all I was hoping was that the fake winner would breakdown before the finish line, and the second would let a few cars pass him as a protest.
Also, bmw should use a different body for that tube framed vehicle, like a X5 or at least a X3, that mini bodywork is just out of place in that race, it's like decorating a Dakar bike with a Vespa bodywork.

They raced an X5 buggy with a diesel for awhile, when the diesel X5 first came out. I think there is a a Mini 4x4 SUV either in the planning stages or out for the last year or so, and that would be consistent with their marketing.

PirateJohn screwed with this post 01-19-2014 at 09:14 AM
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Old 01-19-2014, 09:22 AM   #608
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They raced an X5 with a diesel for awhile, when those vehicles first came out. I think there is a a Mini 4x4 SUV either in the planning stages or out for the last year or so, and that would be consistent with their marketing.


The x-raid chassis is really somewhat of an evolution

the X3 CC was in fact diesel but not sure if all the ones that were raced were diesels
you can still buy one of those




then came the Mini All4 Racing
This was a new concept to address upcoming changes in the FIA rules for Cross Country Championship
The cars are meant to be versions of the mini countryman which is all wheel drive, has 4 doors and is a bit bigger then the rest of the "minis".




Mini was a big investment for BMW at the time and although a bit of an odd match for Dakar on the surface
I guess it worked as they seem to be pretty successful in the market place.

As far as next evolution of the car, there are no indicators as of yet that there is an all new car in the plans
so we shall see what the future brings.
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:28 AM   #609
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Wink I think they are all "still friends"... well "proffessionally" - at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) View Post
I really don't understand why 'the word' even came out about team orders this year? - I guess Peterhansel was properly pissed at them [denying him his 12th win] and spilt the beans...

Most years it would just that one of them 'had a problem' for a few minutes to restore the desired order...

This year it was a PR disaster.

Jx
or what about this...?

Peterhansel - through little fault of his own - semi-unintentionally found himself leading after stage 12; when he passed Roma in a section of dunes - stuck - and thereby inherited the lead. Roma (operating under the assumption that the "team order" given at end of stage 11 (when Roma was still legitimately the leader)... which he HAD been since stage 6 when Peterhansel suffered a spate of (4?) flats in one stage that dropped him down the order... in the first place )

On stage 13, when Peterhansel "let" Roma past again for the "win", he did so not only as required by the decision made by the team manager at conclusion of stage 11... but because he is a proffessional 100%.

Possibly also out of respect/repayment to both Quandt and Roma for the years of support they have offered/sacrificed in the past to Stephane.

All five of Stephanes DAKAR auto wins have come under Quandt's management. It was Sven who was involved in the recruitment of Peterhansel into the Mitsubishi squad (yes... that's right - SQ was CEO/Team manager at MMSP back at that time also). This after the frenchman had endured a couple of ill fated attempts in the auto division at DAKAR. The (then) six-time ex-MOTO champion had flirted with a Renault Kangoo and Nissan pick-up un-successfully and Quandt, seeing the potential brought Peterhansel to "his" team. Other "names" he can claim credit for doing the same...? Kleinschmidt, Roma, Alphand, Chicherit and even Al Attiyah (though he came with a cheque-book also).

As far as "Nani" goes... he has been in the reverse situation a number of times in his career as team mate to Peterhansel (they have BOTH had factory dirive almost all of their career on the same team, at the same time, with Mitsu, BMW and at MINI). As he said in a couple of his interviews... "team order" have been implemented on a few occassions in the past, where "he" had been asked not to attack his team mate (in a couple of instances Peterhansel) in order to ensure the team maintain it's hold on the victory. In this rspect had he always complied... and as a "professional" he expected (assumed) the same would be maintained in 2014.

So see it as a "repayment on SP's behalf of a collaboration on all three's behalf (Stephane, nani and Sven), that goes back over a decade.

I agree that "team orders" and the corporate intervention dilutes to a certain extent the "purity" of sport... but it is not new to DAKAR or motorsport in general. And when the millions of dollars that are involved are at stake, it is not really suprising that the factories step in to protect their investment.

If you don't like that aspect, one can always refrain from accepting a factory drive and do as many of the high profile privateers do, and spend their OWN MONEY to fund a Dakar campaign. In that respect - like the majority do - you can run as hard or as fast as you like. But if you are being PAID then you follow you employers request I would think. Peterhansel is a pro... and his action proved it.

Nani is also, and after many years loyal service... it was "his" turn. Record book "twelve" and marketing semantics aside - THAT was the decision the team management came to, and THAT's what was executed... in military precision. The PR aspect of it however, was less that stellar. Unfortunate in many ways that it became so public... as similar "agreements" in the past (eg. Mini, BMW, VW, Mitsu etc.) had been executed without the same level of "confirmed" media coverage.

And so to the last point; that Peterhansel (should have told them to stick it). He would never do, he is too aware of his reputation to ever do so. Quite aside from any "debt" he may or may not feel to Nani or Sven as consequence of the history they have:

So far in the interviews that I have read/seen... most of the reports that Peterhansel is "reportedly" talking with Peugeot about DAKAR 2015, have come from the media. The only report (that I have seen) where Peterhansel mentioned this, was some days prior to X-mas; and there he stated only that he is contracted to MINI for 2014 Dakar, and maybe the future - as yet no decision?

Whether it is Peugeot or Citröen (both PSA Group brands) that saddle up for DAKAR 2015 is also very much open to speculation... The Peugeot name came up after the successful pikes Peak campaign - with seb löeb at the wheel. Citröen is also a rumour - in past they (as Peugeot) have a great record at dakar, and on the back of Löebs history with them at WRC (and in 2015 WTCC) it seems a good "fit" also.

Tack onto the back of this, the fact that Seb turned up to VIP the dakar this year, went all over the Red Bull sponsored SMG operation (French Dakar team with tons experience and backing from Seb's personal sponsor - Red Bull), even had a joy-ride in one of them at conclusion of one of the days stages. With him and carlos sainz contacts to Citröen, Red Bull and the SMG team... yeah, for sure something is in the cookpot there... whether it will be in Peugeot or Citröen livery... only the names involved and the big wigs at PSA know at the moment - probably.

But, it does seem probable/possible that a major french AUTO factory teameffort will be at DAKAR possibly as early as 2015... and (possibly) in a 2WD T1 class vehicle?

Which raioses the question as to what MINI and TOYOTA will do from here?

Would Peterhansel jump at the chance to work with the French connection? maybe so? Does X-Raid have something up their sleeve for the 2015 Dakar? Who knows? Where will Peterhansel be in 2015? Not sure right now, but it will be somewhere that he knows he has a fighting chance to take "number 12" I reckon.

For the moment "Nanii" got re-paid for "years of service", Stephane "paid" for years of support and "the boss" made sure his investment "paid off"... just as it has been at DAKAR since Porsche/Rothmans and Peugeot/Pioneer brought the big dollars to the "amateur" rallye.
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Old 01-20-2014, 09:03 AM   #610
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Excellent post, Troy.

Furthermore, be grateful that the teams have the approach that there is no number one driver from the start (unlike F1). They let the race run its course, and then tell their drivers to not attack each other in the latter stages, and all of them know that early in the second week those orders will come.

The PR is much better for Mini to say they had all three steps on the podium, than any publicity they might get from Peterhansel winning a 12th.

Don't blame Mini for being good, question where all the other teams failed.
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:05 AM   #611
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"For the moment "Nanii" got re-paid for "years of service", Stephane "paid" for years of support and "the boss" made sure his investment "paid off"... just as it has been at DAKAR since Porsche/Rothmans and Peugeot/Pioneer brought the big dollars to the "amateur" rallye. "

I am sorry, I have a problem with the corporate influences on racing...I am old school, hanging around tracks and riding bikes since the late 70's, so no naivety here...I support genuine racing concepts: two drivers leave the line, one finishes in first place or its' a legitimate tie without any outside influences such corporate orders...perhaps your suggesting that we should be happy with and subscribe to a 'Talladega Nights - Ricky Bobby' style of racing... I think NOT, but thanks for the generous amount of explanation on the matter of Roma and Peterhansel, for those not as familiar with racing, its a great outline on what can happen to a good driver(s) under corporate thumbs ($$$). Cheers, Mate!
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:58 AM   #612
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I don't think Troy is defending the aspect of the team orders,
but offering a bit of insight into what really goes on and how these decisions come to be.

Some of us are having an easier time accepting this and others want nothing to do with it.
To each his own, but this has been a reality of having factory teams in any sport, it is just that they don't always become so public. Had nobody said anything, we all would have wondered what problem was it that struck Peterhansel and had Nasser helping him with on that last stage as Nani drove by. All of us going over the twitter photo with a magnifying glass, scanning the social media feeds for any sign of what the trouble was, scouring the youtube channels for videos that show tools out and broken parts strewn about...


In Nani's defense, (as even I stated this would hang over his win like an asterisk to the fans) he drove a good race and this was without doubt his best performance yet. In the end it was decided that it was his time to hold the "Cabesa de Touareg" and kudos to him, as I am sure there were times in his career where he had to hold back and let the leaders lead although it may have not been as close as it was this time around. Play the factory game, be a good player, rewards come eventually...

I wonder if Peterhansel and Roma were let to race it to the bitter end and took each other off a cliff somewhere on stage 12 would we have been as critical of Quandt as we are of Yamakazi for not reigning in Barreda.
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:41 AM   #613
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I didn't put this one together, but the kid who did did a really good job.

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Old 01-22-2014, 07:13 PM   #614
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I didn't put this one together, but the kid who did did a really good job.
Nice job !
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:06 PM   #615
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I didn't put this one together, but the kid who did did a really good job.

Yep, great job - he wasn't half pushing that Toyota just after the minute

But seriously, I hope RG sticks with the car and refines it for next year.
He is great for the Dakar and we need some serious competition against the Mini (read Toureg, Pajero etc. etc.) road show

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