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Old 10-07-2013, 11:35 AM   #16
def
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouthfulloflake View Post
yes, the charger looks similar, but apparently is not, given the different charging abilitis.

I can tell you the look alike charger can not get a pc625 above 14.2 volts in any of its normal charge modes.

you may be right about the slight difference in the CCA though, but that slight difference with some slight degradation of the chemical process might have put Roger where he is now, who knows.

and yes, I had to modify my battery tray to fit the 625

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=31
I'm goin' with a starter with high current draw.

However, a goosed up charge of his PC680 wouldn't hurt.

I doubt that Odssey makes their own chargers...unless proven otherwise, their charger is a Schumacher SC600-A with Odssey decals.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:22 PM   #17
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Quote:
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I'm goin' with a starter with high current draw.

However, a goosed up charge of his PC680 wouldn't hurt.

I doubt that Odssey makes their own chargers...unless proven otherwise, their charger is a Schumacher SC600-A with Odssey decals.
I figure it has different guts inside it, and it obviously does since its only a 6amp 3 step charger.

the sc600 has 6,4, and 2 amp settings, obvious differences.

But yes, it could just as easily be his EDIT - starter.
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Old 10-07-2013, 02:19 PM   #18
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I've been looking at chargers and thinking about adding a diode in the reference leg of the alternator. I'm still not convinced about which it is.

Since I couldn't do much today I ran a quick test to see what was being effected by the low battery voltage during cranking (maybe everything), leading to the slow lean first start of the day.

I powered the Motronic and circuits from a second battery, but not the pump and injectors. Same slow, lean first start.

Since I previously measured the fuel pressure during starting, I think I've narrowed it down to the injectors and fuel pump which are being affected by voltage. I will power separately tomorrow. My money is on the injectors ... now ... low voltage will make them open slower and squirt less fuel.

As to battery or starter as the voltage dip culprit, I didn't make much progress today but got many good inputs on the PC680 charging requirements.
RB
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Old 10-07-2013, 04:01 PM   #19
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I thought I read a while back that the motronic would increase cycle time on the injectors under low voltage conditions?
or is it not enough to compensate?
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Old 10-07-2013, 04:10 PM   #20
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If the headlamp alone pulls the battery immediately down to 12.1 volts, then you have a very weak battery.
Try a fully charged and known GOOD battery before beginning a starter tear-down.
My favorite ( for the money ) is the grey case DEKA, made in USA by EastPenn and usually available for around 80 to 90 dollars.
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:26 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
I've been looking at chargers and thinking about adding a diode in the reference leg of the alternator. I'm still not convinced about which it is.

Since I couldn't do much today I ran a quick test to see what was being effected by the low battery voltage during cranking (maybe everything), leading to the slow lean first start of the day.

I powered the Motronic and circuits from a second battery, but not the pump and injectors. Same slow, lean first start.

Since I previously measured the fuel pressure during starting, I think I've narrowed it down to the injectors and fuel pump which are being affected by voltage. I will power separately tomorrow. My money is on the injectors ... now ... low voltage will make them open slower and squirt less fuel.

As to battery or starter as the voltage dip culprit, I didn't make much progress today but got many good inputs on the PC680 charging requirements.
RB
I assume that the diode thing would change charging voltage? If so, what diode do I use and where do I put it?

BMW, are you watching as your customer improves your product? Maybe you should consider hiring him as a consultant for ECU and electrical system improvements. So Roger, would you like to live in Bavaria? Let's see, no Patriots, no Bruins, no Redsox, no Celtics and no lobsta or scrod...maybe not.
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:54 PM   #22
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there is typically a .7 volt drop across a zener diode, so if one was put into the circuit where the regulator senses the battery voltage, it would think the batter was actually .7 volts lower than actual.

there are other articles, but this one might shed some light

http://www.hax.se/alternator/

http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/ipb/index...using-a-diode/

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthre...or-End-Voltage
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:55 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Power View Post
If the headlamp alone pulls the battery immediately down to 12.1 volts, then you have a very weak battery.
Try a fully charged and known GOOD battery before beginning a starter tear-down.
My favorite ( for the money ) is the grey case DEKA, made in USA by EastPenn and usually available for around 80 to 90 dollars.
Thank you for the specific comment about 12.1V. The funny thing is that even if I leave the lights on for 15 minutes, after a while the battery returns to 12.9V. And it spins the engine seemingly well. I'm planning to get a good charger and fully charge the battery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by def View Post
I assume that the diode thing would change charging voltage? If so, what diode do I use and where do I put it?

BMW, are you watching as your customer improves your product? Maybe you should consider hiring him as a consultant for ECU and electrical system improvements. So Roger, would you like to live in Bavaria? Let's see, no Patriots, no Bruins, no Redsox, no Celtics and no lobsta or scrod...maybe not.
The diode goes in series with the voltage regulator, high side. A Silicon diode 0.7 forward voltage.

I'm pretty impressed by the Bosch and BMW designers. And anyway I just got back from that general area, the Alps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mouthfulloflake View Post
there is typically a .7 volt drop across a zener diode, so if one was put into the circuit where the regulator senses the battery voltage, it would think the batter was actually .7 volts lower than actual.

there are other articles, but this one might shed some light

http://www.hax.se/alternator/

http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/ipb/index...using-a-diode/

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=732981

That's the idea, thanks, I'll check out the articles.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:57 AM   #24
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I'm going to get a proper charger later this week, cycle the battery according to the Odyssey specs and see how it does. Since I've already serviced the starter twice, once with the planetary gear cover arcing on the armature, I will likely get a new starter anyway. But I've remained curious about why the voltage dip leads to the slow, lean start.

I ran another test this morning to see if I could out why the dip causes the problem: lights bright, starter turning over quickly but slow-start and lean afterstart condition. Yesterday I separately powered the the Motronic with no improvement.

This morning I separately powered the injectors and fuel pump from a second source (not hard, just pull the relay and plug in a jumper which I recommend carrying in case you lose a relay). BINGO! With only the fuel pump and injectors powered from a second source, the bike started right up. So low injector voltage is the issue with low-battery, hard-starting.

I should have known this because last year when I noticed my alternator taking time to come on-line after starting (about a minute) I also noticed that the mixture got much richer when the battery voltage stepped up due to the alternator starting to charge. This is easy to see with an LC-1 because it's always measuring the exhaust, and the Motronic is always in Open Loop until the engine is warm so the O2 sensor doesn't adapt to the low voltage.

So my theory is this: the voltage dip is coming at a time, on first cold start, that the Motronic usually adds a lot of fuel, perhaps for as little as the first few revolutions. At that time, the voltage dip keeps the injectors from squirting enough fuel to adequately wet the TP and injection track. From then on, it is behind the eight-ball and playing catch-up with the fueling.

The Motronic does compensate for low battery voltage but this is now the second time that I've seen its compensation to be inadequate.

Still TBD, battery or starter ...

Added:
Here's how the mixture varied when the alternator came on-line slowly. This isn't real bad but it is measureable. The start plot is much worse. The step down in AFR is the alternator coming on-line at 3 minutes 20 seconds.

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Old 10-08-2013, 06:22 AM   #25
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At cold start, I too notice that the alternator on my 2001 takes a moment to begin contributing to the battery (based on the low beam intensity as well as the alternator light in the RID). However, this alternator wake-up time has never been more than a few seconds after the engine is idling, maybe 5 seconds. So does this mean that the alternator has not received excitation and is actually just along for the ride? If so, how does one correct this? Would servicing the alternator improve performance? I assume servicing would mean new brushes, burnishing the slip ring(s), cleaning all electrical connections associated with the alternator? How about the starter? Does the alternator rely on the starter circuit for excitation?

I have always thought little about the alternators in my life. Only one has ever required any service (1968 Buick 225 convertible, my favorite car). New bearings returned it to like new.

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Old 10-08-2013, 01:10 PM   #26
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Def, Check the wattage on your Batt/Alt bulb. My high-beam was a 3W bulb and the Batt/Alt was 1.7W. Max BMW now sells only the 3W for both spots.

About a year ago, I swapped the 3W and 1.7W bulbs so that the 3W is in the Batt/Alt spot. With that the Alternator starts within a fraction of a second.
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Old 10-08-2013, 08:10 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Def, Check the wattage on your Batt/Alt bulb. My high-beam was a 3W bulb and the Batt/Alt was 1.7W. Max BMW now sells only the 3W for both spots.

About a year ago, I swapped the 3W and 1.7W bulbs so that the 3W is in the Batt/Alt spot. With that the Alternator starts within a fraction of a second.
RB
Thanks for that Roger. I'm looking into lamping my instruments and RID with LEDs to improve brightness. Your suggestion would lead me to believe that the alt/batt lamp should remain an incandescent. Thanks again.

BTW, had some good beer battered cod today along with a cold beer...breakfast of champions.
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Old 10-09-2013, 06:20 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ravenslair View Post
This thread reminds me that I should pull my 04's starter and clean it up and take a look to make sure is all well in there.
2004 R1150GS ADV at about 50,000 - Slower starting over time -Squealed for one second right after starting -

Before




After



Checked



Took less than 1 hour

Bike started perfectly for the next 30,000 miles.

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Old 10-09-2013, 08:28 AM   #29
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Quick updates to this ongoing saga:

I looked at the grounds today, checked them by measuring high current voltage drop, they are fine. I also took out the BMW wiring CD. The grounding is certainly not obvious. In stock condition, there are four ground wires that connect to the battery and only one of them is a direct connection to the transmission. At some point I will do a thread on this. However, the Motronic, Alternator and Generator all get their grounds from the transmission/engine connection and as a result, any drop in the large cable from battery to transmission would affect measurements and operation.

Today I connected the fuel injectors to a car battery with the car running, adding a volt to the injectors during my cold start test (12.4V to 13.4V or thereabouts). With everything else connected normally, the battery voltage low as it has been. The motorcycle started quickly and ran smoothly. So the cause of my problems is low battery voltage during starting and the effect is lower voltage at the injectors that the Motronic can't/doesn't compensate enough for during starting, which is Open Loop operation.

Also, I discharged the battery for 20 minutes with the headlight, rode the motorcycle for an hour. Came back, turned on the headlights, lo and behold, the battery voltage with the headlights on but the bike not running was 12.5V for 5 minutes or so. This is 0.4V more than I have recorded in any log that I have in the past year for the same condition.

So it looks like VR and GSAddict nailed it, the problem is that I've undercharged the battery for the past year and a half. I will discharge/charge it per detailed recommendations (that I'll post later) from Odyssey.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:40 AM   #30
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I knew that you would find the cause of your extended cold starting. Nice work Roger.
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