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Old 10-10-2013, 11:24 AM   #31
roger 04 rt OP
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Here is what I heard from odyssey on the subject of pc680 maintenance.

Hello Roger,

Thank you for contacting EnerSys/ODYSSEY.

See attached manual reconditioning cycle for your reference. If your headlight will stay on, this would work fairly well for a way of discharging the battery.

Proper charger maintenance is critical to maximize the life and performance of the ODYSSEY battery. ODYSSEY Battery 101?

The usable energy of the ODYSSEY battery is from 11.2V (0% state of charge) OCV to 12.84V OCV (Open Circuit Voltage should be checked after a minimum of 6-8 hours rest period with no loads) or higher. When the battery goes below 10.0V OCV, you are getting into the chemical part of the battery and can cause permanent damage. At less than 8.0V the ODYSSEY limited warranty deems the battery over-discharged due to abuse or neglect. At less than 6V the battery can develop reversed cells depending on the condition of the battery. The ODYSSEY charger/maintainer can maintain the battery at a full state of charge indefinitely in or out of the application without harming the battery. If the battery becomes over-discharged (below 11.0V) then the sooner the battery can be fully charged the better and if the battery remains connected to the application during storage or extended periods of non-use. There is a link to a list of ODYSSEY approved 12V chargers located on the ODYSSEY website Product Support page for your reference. Any of the approved chargers can be used to maintain the battery indefinitely without harming the battery.

The list of approved 12V chargers is provided due to the many chargers that are programmed for the vast majority of batteries on the market that prefer low amp charging and lower float voltages that do not fully charge or maintain the ODYSSEY battery properly. The recommended charging current for an ODYSSEY battery is 40% of the 10 hour amp hour rating of the battery for cyclic applications (about 6A for a single 16Ah rated PC680), a constant float voltage of 13.5-13.8V and no constant voltages exceeding 15.0V in any kind of automatic de-sulfation/reconditioning/equalize mode. At greater than 15.0V the battery can overcharge, overheat, and/or go into thermal runaway. Maintaining the battery at less than 13.5V will bring the battery down and maintain it in an undercharged condition causing sulfation and premature failure.

For seasonal applications (non-daily use applications that set for more than 3 days in a row consistently) frequent use of an approved maintainer that meets the charge voltage requirements noted in the previous paragraph is highly recommended during the season. The preferred storage method is to fully charge the battery before storing and disconnect the battery from the application (shelf storage mode) Stored in or out of the application with no loads, the battery would not require charging for up to 2 years at 77?F or until it reaches 12.0V, whichever comes first. The self discharge rate increases significantly for temperatures above 25?C (77?F) and for every 10?C (18?F) temperature increase the storage time to recharge is decreased by half. Charge maintenance is critical to maximizing the life and performance of the battery. Freezing will not harm the battery and self discharge rates reduce significantly at colder temperatures.

It is recommended that the ODYSSEY battery be charged if it is less than 12.65V when put into use per the ODYSSEY Owner?s Manual (link provided on website Literature page for your reference). Most standard alternators/stators are not meant to be deep discharge recovery chargers and can damage the alternator/stator as well as not fully charging the battery with limited use. The Cyclic Charge Voltage range printed on the top label of the battery is the recommended voltage at the battery from the applications charging system (alternator or stator). At less than 14.1V the battery may not be getting fully charged for infrequently used applications. You can verify the battery voltage by checking the voltage at the battery at least 8 hours after application use (or off charge) and if the battery voltage is not at least 12.84V then the battery is not considered fully charged. Voltage readings taken right off charge or after use (alternator/stator charging) will be inflated and inaccurate so for a true OCV reading, you should wait at least 8 hours before checking the voltage (OCV) with 24 hours being preferred.

Any feedback is always welcome and appreciated. I hope this helps. Please contact me if you have any questions, concerns, or need further assistance.

Sincerely,
ODYSSEY Sales/Support Representative
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:20 PM   #32
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Thanks for the info Roger. Did the email contain any links to what they were referencing? I would like to see if my BMW charger is on that list. I am not due for a battery any time soon but am considering the 680 when the time comes.

*******EDIT**************
OK, it looks like the BMW charger is a no go. It is only 1.25amps and the Deltran (who makes the BMW charger) is not on Odyssey's list of approved chargers.

Ravenslair screwed with this post 10-10-2013 at 02:29 PM
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:48 PM   #33
roger 04 rt OP
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Originally Posted by Ravenslair View Post
Thanks for the info Roger. Did the email contain any links to what they were referencing? I would like to see if my BMW charger is on that list. I am not due for a battery any time soon but am considering the 680 when the time comes.

*******EDIT**************
OK, it looks like the BMW charger is a no go. It is only 1.25amps and the Deltran (who makes the BMW charger) is not on Odyssey's list of approved chargers.
Here you go ...

http://www.odysseybattery.com/docume...ay2013_000.pdf
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Old 10-10-2013, 03:14 PM   #34
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Thanks Roger!
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Old 10-13-2013, 08:59 PM   #35
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Still waiting for delivery of the charger. In the meantime ...

Below is a chart from East Penn (many thanks to Terry), a manufacturer of Gel and AGM batteries. On the chart you can see the expected battery voltage when an AGM battery is loaded at the 1-3 hour discharge rate. That would mean that my fully charged PC680 (16 aH) when loaded at a 5-16 amps should still have a 12.5 to 12.6V output. It seems pretty clear to me that my battery is not fully charged since at key-on the voltage drops from 12.9 to 12.1V or so.

With my key on I've got about a 4 amp load from the low beam and maybe a couple amps for everything else. That is within the 1-3 hour discharge range on the chart. I plan to measure my key on battery load.

While I wait for the charger and some time, I've been looking at old GS-911 log files to find the initial cold-start injector pulse length. It used to be about 3.8 mS. Lately it has been in the 4.5 mS range, up to 5.5 mS. This is due to guess what? Low battery voltage. The Motronic is trying to compensate, it's just not adding enough time. I now feel that I have triangulated this pretty well. Everything points to low voltage at the injectors due to the battery (and perhaps the starter).

It will still be a day or two before I begin reconditioning the battery.
RB

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Old 10-16-2013, 09:27 AM   #36
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To recondition its AGM batteries, Odyssey recommends discharging the battery at or slower than the 5-hour rate to a final voltage of 10.02V.

The PC680 is a 16 aH battery so the 5 hr rate is about 3 amps. I used a 6 ohm resistor and the discharge started at 2 amps, averaging 1.8 amps. For a fully charged battery, it should have taken just under 9 hours to discharge. The Open Circuit Voltage at start was 12.9V which theoretically indicates a full charge.

It took about 6 hours to get to 10 volts. My "fully charged" battery (by the alternator and then BT Jr.) sourced 11 amp-hours or 70% of the claimed 16 amp-hours capacity.

(Coming at it a different way, using the AGM curves for discharge-rate vs voltage, would say the 12.1 volts I get with the headlight on means that it is about 60-65% charged.)

I started recharging it this morning with the Odyssey 12 amp charger. After that Odyssey says to discharge it again and see how many amp-hours to 10.02V, doing it up to five times or until it stops improving.
RB
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:13 PM   #37
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Roger, this is going to be interesting in that many of us use the Odyssey AGM battery and rarely charge them at the optimum rate/voltage.

Am I correct, would it follow that the installation of a diode in the alternator might bring new life to many of the AGM batteries in our BMWs.

Might there be a kit for this modification in your/BMW owners future?

Following this with interest.
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:07 PM   #38
roger 04 rt OP
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def,
I'm taking this a step at a time. The battery has been charging (Odyssey charger) and increasing steadily for 7 hours and is presently at 12.4V. My next step is to check the lights on, engine not started voltage and see if it is up from 12.1.

There are presently three choices for the VR: a diode mod to the stock regulator; a Hella 14.5V replacement regulator and an adjustable which I came across. Not sure which is best of if any but the diode mod are correct for our alternators.
RB

Diode Mod:MOF linked it earlier in the post
Hella: 5DR 004 242-051
Adjustable: http://www.davebarton.com/AdjustableVoltage.html
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:09 PM   #39
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I'll watch and wait as you make progress.

Thx.
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:27 PM   #40
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Ill see if I have a diode laying around, and try this soon.

you have me worried now that my AGM battery is undercharging as well, even though Ive zero issues with it thus far.
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Old 10-16-2013, 04:12 PM   #41
def
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Originally Posted by mouthfulloflake View Post
Ill see if I have a diode laying around, and try this soon.

you have me worried now that my AGM battery is undercharging as well, even though Ive zero issues with it thus far.
Me too. Mr Lake, if you do the mod, photos please.

Thx.
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:46 PM   #42
roger 04 rt OP
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Originally Posted by mouthfulloflake View Post
Ill see if I have a diode laying around, and try this soon.

you have me worried now that my AGM battery is undercharging as well, even though Ive zero issues with it thus far.
The diode has to be rated for the entire rotor current, not sure what that is.

It seems very likely to me that your battery isn't fully charged. I gave my battery a double insult: low charging voltage AND low float voltage from the BT Jr. I run a lot of tests on my bike so I thought I was doing a good thing.

Although you've had zero issues so far, I didn't either. Lights were bright, starter turned over quickly, the battery open circuit voltage was 12.9V. If I hadn't been taking data I wouldn't have caught this.

After draining the battery to zero capacity (10V), I put it in the Odyssey 12A charger. 13 hours later, it is at 12.9V, still charging and the voltage still increasing. I think it has a few more hours to go to hit the absorption phase at 14.7 V. I had no idea it would take this long.

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 10-17-2013 at 02:03 PM
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:43 PM   #43
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The diode has to be rated for the entire rotor current, not sure what that is.
.
Full force is 4.5A
Use a 6A barrel diode with 50-100 piv
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:00 AM   #44
roger 04 rt OP
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Full force is 4.5A
Use a 6A barrel diode with 50-100 piv
Thanks GSA.

Finished the first recharge. The Odyssey charger, like some others, charges in three steps: bulk at high current up to 14.7V, absorption at lower current at 14.7V, and float between 13.5 and 14.1V.

The bulk recharge to 14.7 volts took about 15 hours, absorption took another few overnight.

The open circuit voltage is now 12.9 volts, the same as before. However, the key-on, headlight on-voltage is now 12.6-12.7 volts (increased from 12.1 volts). I should run another discharge/recharge cycle to see if the battery capacity has been restored but I'll see how it starts first.
RB
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Old 10-17-2013, 11:07 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
The open circuit voltage is now 12.9 volts, the same as before. However, the key-on, headlight on-voltage is now 12.6-12.7 volts (increased from 12.1 volts). I should run another discharge/recharge cycle to see if the battery capacity has been restored but I'll see how it starts first.
RB
Oh boy..this is gonna be good...how to rejuvenate our AGM batteries and how to modify our alternators to properly charge these batteries authored by a trusted inmate who experiments, documents and then shares
the results.

I see a new product/kit in your future Roger.

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