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Old 10-17-2013, 10:34 AM   #46
def
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So, based upon GS Addict's specs and Roger's early battery charging results, I did a bit of noodling around on the web and find that the diode specified is rather cheap.

Here is a link http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Molded-P...=pd_sbs_misc_1

Also, I notice that diode specifications are often quoted at 25 C., likely well below the temperatures seen by the component once it is buried in the bowels of the alternator.

Could somebody please comment on the suitability of this diode for the intended application?
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:35 AM   #47
roger 04 rt OP
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Originally Posted by def View Post
Oh boy..this is gonna be good...how to rejuvenate our AGM batteries and how to modify our alternators to properly charge these batteries authored by a trusted inmate who experiments, documents and then shares
the results.

I see a new product/kit in your future Roger.

I don't think so. ;) It would be great if someone would mod mine ...

I'll publish a report on how the first start went later today.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:36 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by def View Post
So, based upon GS Addict's specs, I did a bit of noodling around on the web and find that the diode specified is rather cheap.

Here is a link http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Molded-P...=pd_sbs_misc_1

Also, I notice that diode specifications are often quoted at 25 C., likely well below the temperatures seen by the component once it is buried in the bowels of the alternator.

Could somebody please comment on the suitability of this diode for the intended application?
10 diodes for $3.66. Kind of pricey but I'm going for it.
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Old 10-17-2013, 11:24 AM   #49
def
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Further thinking out loud here and reviewing the work Roger has done so far, I am inclined to believe that the battery charging function of the automotive alternator used on our BMW motorcycles may not be quite up to the requirements of some battery types. And while the simple flooded cell lead/acid battery may be satisfied with the voltage and current produced when the alternator is spinning, AGM batteries may not be as happy, as Roger is finding out.

So, is some sort of charging controller be more appropriate for our motorcycles?

Battery chargers have microprocessor controlled charging profiles to satisfy battery chemistry, guard against reverse polarity, eliminate thermal runaway and monitor battery temperature during charging.

For example, my motorhome has a charger/inverter that monitors battery temperature when the vehicle is plugged into shore power and the house batteries are being charged. However, the charging profile of this inverter is not appropriate for anything but flooded cell, deep cycle batteries.

After reviewing Roger's conversations with the Odyssey folks, it is becoming apparent that our alternators just don't quite fill up the AGM battery.

A final thought, Roger has proven to me that the stoichiometric 14.7:1 AFR embedded in our Motronic ECUs is too lean for our boxer engines.

However, 14.7 VDC may just be the perfect voltage for proper charging of the Odyssey AGM style battery.

Oh, the irony....
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Old 10-17-2013, 11:42 AM   #50
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[QUOTE=roger 04 rt;22570090]
After draining the battery to zero,/QUOTE]

Re: post 42
You must mean 10v not 0!!!
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:03 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
To recondition its AGM batteries, Odyssey recommends discharging the battery at or slower than the 5-hour rate to a final voltage of 10.02V.

The PC680 is a 16 aH battery so the 5 hr rate is about 3 amps. I used a 6 ohm resistor and the discharge started at 2 amps, averaging 1.8 amps. For a fully charged battery, it should have taken just under 9 hours to discharge. The Open Circuit Voltage at start was 12.9V which theoretically indicates a full charge.

It took about 6 hours to get to 10 volts. My "fully charged" battery (by the alternator and then BT Jr.) sourced 11 amp-hours or 70% of the claimed 16 amp-hours capacity.

(Coming at it a different way, using the AGM curves for discharge-rate vs voltage, would say the 12.1 volts I get with the headlight on means that it is about 60-65% charged.)

I started recharging it this morning with the Odyssey 12 amp charger. After that Odyssey says to discharge it again and see how many amp-hours to 10.02V, doing it up to five times or until it stops improving.
RB
I made up this for doing recovery discharges (316 ss wire) along with a low voltage alarm when I hit 10v. I can then do other things in the shop while discharging.

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Old 10-17-2013, 12:11 PM   #52
def
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I made up this for doing recovery discharges (316 ss wire) along with a low voltage alarm when I hit 10v. I can then do other things in the shop while discharging.

Looks like the electric clothes dryers we use here in Dixie.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:04 PM   #53
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[QUOTE=GS Addict;22575016]
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
After draining the battery to zero,/QUOTE]

Re: post 42
You must mean 10v not 0!!!
Oops, O volts would be terrible for the battery. Fixed it. I meant zero capacity (10V).
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:51 PM   #54
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Starting Test After PC680 Battery Cycling (GSAddict and VintageRider got it right and they and Terry helped a lot)
I went out to the garage, set everything up very carefully to record data: er, er, vroom--1.1 seconds! The best start in 4-5 months. I would say normal and as expected. Success!

Setting up carefully means turning the key on but with the headlight fuse pulled, getting the gs-911 set up and configured for logging, putting a jumper in for the fuel pump relay (5 amps) and LC-1 (2 amps for the heater), starting the LC-1 logging software, putting the headlight fuse back in, and then pressing the start button. Total elapsed time with the key on before starting of about 2 minutes. The draw for the headlamp, fuel pump and LC-1 is about 13-14 amps total (plus whatever the panel lamps, gauges and ABS draw).

Fast idle lever in the detent position (1.92 degrees TPS open) and not touched from pressing the start button until the bike was warmed up and in closed loop.

By the time I pressed start, the voltage had dropped from 12.5V to 12.1 volts (that sounds worse than it is since I had a 14 amp load on it). Minimum voltage in the start log was 10V, low but not nearly as low as the 7-8V I'd seen previously.

Of note, the LC-1, which for the past several months had been resetting each time I started the bike, did not reset itself. I attribute this to better battery response.

After starting, the RPM, spark advance behaved well for the first time in a while. The idling quality was very good.

Also of note, the injection pulse times were longer than anything I've seen previously. Just before and just after start about 5 mS. But on the battery dip to 10V, a single pulse of 6.2 mS, the longest I've seen. It makes me believe that the battery induced starting voltage dips were affecting the Motronic.

Summary
At the start of this thread I was investigating slow starting on the first start of the day, and leanness in the first minute or so of idling. I found a fouled lower plug (replace all four plugs with Bosch), a weak stick coil (replaced both) and a significantly undercharged PC680 battery. Although the plugs and coils needed replacement and my bike better after replacement, it was the low voltage caused by the perpetually undercharged PC680 that was the root of the problem.

The PC680 was undercharged due to a mismatch with the R1150 alternator which only puts out 13.6 - 13.7 volts on average. That's only enough for a trickle charge of the PC680 AGM battery. I made the problem worse by keeping the battery on a Battery Tender Jr. whose float voltage of 13.1 V can lead to battery sulfation.

Low voltage at the fuel injectors causes their turn-on time to increase and thus shortens the duration of the cold start fueling, leading to lean mixtures just when they should be very rich.

The solution to my undercharged PC680 will be to add a diode to the Alternator's Voltage Regulator thereby increasing my alternator's output voltage to 14.4 to 14.7 volts. I will no longer keep my bike on a trickle charger, the PC680 doesn't need it.

Next steps are to cycle the battery again to see if it is at full capacity and to install the diode.

RB

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 10-17-2013 at 02:08 PM
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Old 10-17-2013, 04:10 PM   #55
def
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Starting Test After PC680 Battery Cycling (GSAddict and VintageRider got it right and they and Terry helped a lot)
I went out to the garage, set everything up very carefully to record data: er, er, vroom--1.1 seconds! The best start in 4-5 months. I would say normal and as expected. Success!

Setting up carefully means turning the key on but with the headlight fuse pulled, getting the gs-911 set up and configured for logging, putting a jumper in for the fuel pump relay (5 amps) and LC-1 (2 amps for the heater), starting the LC-1 logging software, putting the headlight fuse back in, and then pressing the start button. Total elapsed time with the key on before starting of about 2 minutes. The draw for the headlamp, fuel pump and LC-1 is about 13-14 amps total (plus whatever the panel lamps, gauges and ABS draw).

Fast idle lever in the detent position (1.92 degrees TPS open) and not touched from pressing the start button until the bike was warmed up and in closed loop.

By the time I pressed start, the voltage had dropped from 12.5V to 12.1 volts (that sounds worse than it is since I had a 14 amp load on it). Minimum voltage in the start log was 10V, low but not nearly as low as the 7-8V I'd seen previously.

Of note, the LC-1, which for the past several months had been resetting each time I started the bike, did not reset itself. I attribute this to better battery response.

After starting, the RPM, spark advance behaved well for the first time in a while. The idling quality was very good.

Also of note, the injection pulse times were longer than anything I've seen previously. Just before and just after start about 5 mS. But on the battery dip to 10V, a single pulse of 6.2 mS, the longest I've seen. It makes me believe that the battery induced starting voltage dips were affecting the Motronic.

Summary
At the start of this thread I was investigating slow starting on the first start of the day, and leanness in the first minute or so of idling. I found a fouled lower plug (replace all four plugs with Bosch), a weak stick coil (replaced both) and a significantly undercharged PC680 battery. Although the plugs and coils needed replacement and my bike better after replacement, it was the low voltage caused by the perpetually undercharged PC680 that was the root of the problem.

The PC680 was undercharged due to a mismatch with the R1150 alternator which only puts out 13.6 - 13.7 volts on average. That's only enough for a trickle charge of the PC680 AGM battery. I made the problem worse by keeping the battery on a Battery Tender Jr. whose float voltage of 13.1 V can lead to battery sulfation.

Low voltage at the fuel injectors causes their turn-on time to increase and thus shortens the duration of the cold start fueling, leading to lean mixtures just when they should be very rich.

The solution to my undercharged PC680 will be to add a diode to the Alternator's Voltage Regulator thereby increasing my alternator's output voltage to 14.4 to 14.7 volts. I will no longer keep my bike on a trickle charger, the PC680 doesn't need it.

Next steps are to cycle the battery again to see if it is at full capacity and to install the diode.

RB

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Old 10-17-2013, 04:34 PM   #56
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Wow def, quite impressive and from a neighbor State, beats my 12 volt light bulb all to hell.

Terry
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Old 10-17-2013, 05:45 PM   #57
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Wow def, quite impressive and from a neighbor State, beats my 12 volt light bulb all to hell.

Terry
If you look carefully, he didn't make the thing.
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:56 PM   #58
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Oh I think his clothes dryer beats my light bulb, we use what we can down here. You BC boys are much too sophisticated for us, I would not know how to work that thing unless GS Addict includes directions.

Terry
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:38 PM   #59
def
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Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post
Wow def, quite impressive and from a neighbor State, beats my 12 volt light bulb all to hell.

Terry
When we're not dryin' clothes, we make whiskey with it.

No, I take no credit for that device...I believe Tom Edison made the first one...called it an incandescent lamp...what did he know??!! We all know that ya get light from kerosene lamps.

Them boys from BC invented smoked salmon...I could never get mine to stay lit for long...nice town that Vancouver but the women are, well....enough said.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:46 PM   #60
def
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Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post
Oh I think his clothes dryer beats my light bulb, we use what we can down here. You BC boys are much too sophisticated for us, I would not know how to work that thing unless GS Addict includes directions.

Terry
Yeah but, the directions would be in French...no wonder we like them Canada fellas...they are posing as Frenchies and get into big fights over a little rubber thing they swat around with a stick...at least when our fellas fight its over a goofy shaped ball and on the grass with girls watchin'....Oh, and our guys don't take their helmets off.

def screwed with this post 10-18-2013 at 11:36 AM
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