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Old 10-20-2013, 04:06 PM   #136
MotoTex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Rider View Post
did you ever consider that they were just tired of wasting their time and your money on your foolishness?
Sure.

Let me get this right, they kept inviting me back, then, they decide that they are tired and want me to take my toys out of their sandbox and go home.

Or, maybe they realized they couldn't win and that made them tired.

Whatever.

Maybe you haven't been to court. You see, this is how courts work. Either they can prove their prosecution, or, they can't. In this case they were unable to. Period. They couldn't meet the basic tests of jurisdiction to muddle it through the arraignment process.
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MotoTex screwed with this post 10-20-2013 at 04:31 PM
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Old 10-20-2013, 04:29 PM   #137
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Do you sincerely believe what your going on about is in the spirit of the actual intent of the laws, or represents the will of the people?
Show me this "people" of which you speak and I'll ask this very question of it. There is no "people" only persons. Individuals.

What you are describing is some sort of hive mentality of which I am unfamiliar among humans.


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Despite a wide range of views expressed here, I don't think anybody here actually wants or agrees with what your suggesting.
You are really into this "groupthink" concept aren't you? Probably not one to delve into the realm of personal liberty, personal responsibility, personal anything. Run with the herd, safety in numbers, that sort of thing is really much more comfortable, isn't it? Don't rock the boat, don't buck, just follow the other livestock in line to the feed trough or the slaughter house with equal concern for self. Ahhhh, togetherness.


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It sounds like an academic debate of a law student with no real world benefit. Some folks have highlighted flaws in their states traffic code, common sense says fix the flaws, not create more.
The real world benefit is the same one the founders of this nation attempted to secure and pass on to those who choose to live in this fine nation.

Once you take the matter from theory to proof (the courtroom) it is no longer academic, is it?

We have good laws, just laws, and the right to question them when we believe a wrong is being done. If you choose not to question, that is fine, for you. If I choose to question and you disapprove, well that is your choice.

I have no issue with people having driver licenses. I have one. It is just that I am opposed to being led to believe something is required when the statutes deny this and the groupthink idea of it being required cannot be proven in court.

When elected and appointed officials swear an oath to support and defend a written agreement (the constitution) I fully expect them to do so without obfuscation. When queried in writing I expect a clear-cut answer. I don't expect to be sent from one branch of government to another and back again to the first without the query having been addressed.

Is a simple explanation of a statutory curiosity really too much to expect of those who serve in the public trust?
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Old 10-20-2013, 04:56 PM   #138
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The basis of law in Canada, I suspect, has the same root as the U.S.A., in the Magna Carta.

Any legal system founded on Common Law must have an injured party in order for a crime to exist.

If these guys did all that is on tape and caused no harm to person or property was no crime committed?

Can the injured party be named and the nature of the injury clearly defined? That is the question to ask in any instance.

Not that what these guys did doesn't make them the poster children for poor judgement and a "potential" danger to the public. But who doesn't have the potential for such?

They do need to be shown the error of their ways and brought to some understanding leading to respect for those they share the roads with. However, this requires an educational experience occurring in a state of rapport between teacher and student which is seldom found in a courtroom or on a list of fines. points, etc.

I've always seen less reward in fining someone. That's like going to confession on Saturday so you can act up for the next week, knowing that you can be forgiven again simply by paying the penance.

The system of monetary punishment may not be the most effective and lasting way to change the mind of a person.
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Old 10-20-2013, 05:52 PM   #139
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The system of monetary punishment may not be the most effective and lasting way to change the mind of a person.
TWENTY TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS I dunno, it'd prolly change my mind pretty good.
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Old 10-20-2013, 05:55 PM   #140
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TWENTY TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS I dunno, it'd prolly change my mind pretty good.
It'll make people run.
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Old 10-20-2013, 05:58 PM   #141
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TWENTY TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS I dunno, it'd prolly change my mind pretty good.
It is impressive, but realistically, would you pay it?

I think I'd opt for jail time over a fine like that. Geez.

I'm sure the prosecutor will settle with them for much less.
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Old 10-20-2013, 08:59 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
It is impressive, but realistically, would you pay it?

I think I'd opt for jail time over a fine like that. Geez.

I'm sure the prosecutor will settle with them for much less.
I'm sure it'll get knocked down.

But don't forget that jail or work release is at minimum wage IF YOU"RE LUCKY.

And I dunno about Canada but in the US you can't go bankrupt or get out of it.

If it were me... I'd be a fugative
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Oh for ***k's sake Aaron. Please link us to my fascist, racist or homophobic posts.
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:49 PM   #143
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Is a simple explanation of a statutory curiosity really too much to expect of those who serve in the public trust?
It seems how and where you are seeking those kind of answers is misguided, to what ends and to who's benefit unclear.

Perhaps you should start your own thread on this subject and see where it goes, or what support your ideas may find.
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Old 10-20-2013, 11:56 PM   #144
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Any legal system founded on Common Law must have an injured party in order for a crime to exist.

If these guys did all that is on tape and caused no harm to person or property was no crime committed?
You have probably misunderstood something. In road traffic, causing danger to yourself and/or others is punishable. And in traffic, it is critical for everyone to be able to expect, what others will do. Dull as it might sound, everyone riding/driving at roughly similar speeds is one of the key factors here.

Any time, when you come from behind a stop sign, or you are turning left across the oncoming lane (in RH traffic), you need to check, that the road is clear, of course, and then you can proceed. But then if somebody has decided, that he/she is gonna arrive into that spot much faster than others (at double the speed limit, for example), then you cannot be reasonably expected to see this in time, or avoid a collision.

Those are typical examples of serious accidents on a motorcycle, and cases like this have been in court many times. If the speed of the vehicle, that normally has the right of way, can be proved to have been substantially above the speed limit, then they can actually be found to be guilty in the accident. And rightly so IMO.
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Old 10-21-2013, 03:48 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Sure.

Let me get this right, they kept inviting me back, then, they decide that they are tired and want me to take my toys out of their sandbox and go home.

Or, maybe they realized they couldn't win and that made them tired.

Whatever.

Maybe you haven't been to court. You see, this is how courts work. Either they can prove their prosecution, or, they can't. In this case they were unable to. Period. They couldn't meet the basic tests of jurisdiction to muddle it through the arraignment process.
I think they just got tired of you.
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Old 10-21-2013, 06:02 AM   #146
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I think they just got tired of you.
Speaking from experience, I'm pretty sure too.
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Old 10-21-2013, 06:10 AM   #147
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I mean, use your head. You were a licensed driver who had surrendered your license. Of course they would drop the case. It is a stupid pointless case and a waste of the court's time. Maybe you found a loophole but no one but you could possibly care.
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Old 10-21-2013, 06:49 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
The basis of law in Canada, I suspect, has the same root as the U.S.A., in the Magna Carta.

Any legal system founded on Common Law must have an injured party in order for a crime to exist.

If these guys did all that is on tape and caused no harm to person or property was no crime committed?

Can the injured party be named and the nature of the injury clearly defined? That is the question to ask in any instance.

Not that what these guys did doesn't make them the poster children for poor judgement and a "potential" danger to the public. But who doesn't have the potential for such?

They do need to be shown the error of their ways and brought to some understanding leading to respect for those they share the roads with. However, this requires an educational experience occurring in a state of rapport between teacher and student which is seldom found in a courtroom or on a list of fines. points, etc.

I've always seen less reward in fining someone. That's like going to confession on Saturday so you can act up for the next week, knowing that you can be forgiven again simply by paying the penance.

The system of monetary punishment may not be the most effective and lasting way to change the mind of a person.
Canadian law is based on English Common Law but many of these infractions are provincial summary offences, although some may be criminal.

But the reality is this was a big safety PR stunt (the amount of fines and media release) to make a point.

These lads as we called them in the Ottawa Valley slang, will likely see much lower amounts of fines once a decent lawyer gets involved but may have license suspensions and impossible insurance rates if not outright cancellation.

Like the rest of the world, Canadian jails are overflowing and expensive to run, judges will do just about anything to avoid handing out jail sentences for non-violent crimes.

So at the end of the day, La Belle Province has made a PR statement, the courts will haul in some money and our two hapless heroes will likely not be riding for quite some time.

And since they are a pair of f'ning retards, it looks good on 'em!
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Old 10-21-2013, 07:03 AM   #149
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So I am curious about how these demerit points work in CA. Googling it I gather you lose your license at 15. But then do they all drop off at two years or only a fixed number? Would 115 result in like a 10 year suspension?
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Old 10-21-2013, 08:08 AM   #150
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So I am curious about how these demerit points work in CA. Googling it I gather you lose your license at 15. But then do they all drop off at two years or only a fixed number? Would 115 result in like a 10 year suspension?

I haven't lost any for many, many years (we won't talk about my misspent youthful days of dumbassery) but here is the Ontario government web site info:

How demerit points work
You don’t “lose” demerit points on your driving record. You start with zero points and gain points for being convicted of breaking certain traffic laws.

Demerit points stay on your record for two years from the offence date. If you collect enough points, you can lose your driver’s licence.

You can also get demerit points on your Ontario’s driver’s licence when you violate driving laws in:

other Canadian provinces and territories
the State of New York
the State of Michigan
What happens if I get out-of-province demerit points?

How demerit points are applied
The number of points added to your driving record depends on the offence. Here are the number of points that will be recorded for certain violations.

7 demerit points will be added if you are convicted of:
failing to remain at the scene of a collision
failing to stop when signaled or asked by a police officer
6 demerit points will be added if you are convicted of:
careless driving
racing
exceeding the speed limit by 50 km/hour or more
failing to stop for a school bus
5 demerit points will be added if you are convicted of:
Failing to stop at an unprotected railway crossing (for bus drivers only)

4 demerit points will be added if you are convicted of:
exceeding the speed limit by 30 to 49 km/hour
following too closely
3 demerit points will be added if you are convicted of:
exceeding the speed limit by 16 to 29 km/hour
driving through, around or under a railway crossing barrier
driving the wrong way on a divided road
driving or operating a vehicle on a closed road
failing to yield the right-of-way
failing to obey a stop sign, traffic control stop/slow sign, traffic light or railway crossing signal
failing to obey the directions of a police officer
failing to report a collision to a police officer
failing to slow and carefully pass a stopped emergency vehicle
failing to move, where possible, into another lane when passing a stopped emergency vehicle
improper passing
improper driving when road is divided into lanes
improper use of a high occupancy vehicle lane
going the wrong way on a one-way road
crossing a divided road where no proper crossing is provided
crowding the driver's seat
2 demerit points will be added if you are convicted of:
improper right turn
improper left turn
improper opening of a vehicle door
prohibited turns
towing people — on toboggans, bicycles, skis
unnecessary slow driving
backing on highway
failing to lower headlamp beams
failing to obey signs
failing to stop at a pedestrian crossing
failing to share the road
failing to signal
driver failing to wear a seat belt
driver failing to ensure infant/child passenger is properly secured in an appropriate child restraint system or booster seat
driver failing to ensure that a passenger less than 23 kg is properly secured
driver failing to ensure that a passenger under 16 years is wearing a seat belt
More about demerit points in Ontario

Penalties for demerit points
The consequences for gaining demerit points depend on how many you have added to your driving record.

As a driver with a full licence, if you have:

2 to 8 points:
You will be sent a warning letter.

9 to 14 points:
Your licence could be suspended. You may have to attend an interview to discuss your driving record. At this meeting, you will need to provide reasons why your licence should not be suspended.

You will get a letter to notify you of the time, date and location of the meeting. If you do not attend, your licence could be suspended.

15+ points:
Your licence will be suspended for 30 days.

When your licence is suspended, you will get a letter from the Ministry of Transportation. It will tell you the date your suspension takes effect and that you need to surrender your licence.

If you do not surrender your licence, you can lose your licence for up to two years.
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