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Old 10-21-2013, 09:24 AM   #151
MotoTex
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
You have probably misunderstood something. In road traffic, causing danger to yourself and/or others is punishable. And in traffic, it is critical for everyone to be able to expect, what others will do. Dull as it might sound, everyone riding/driving at roughly similar speeds is one of the key factors here.
I guess that the difference between you and I is that I don't feel any need for belief in laws in order to know what is right to do in a given instance.

Do you believe that if the knowledge that there is no actual law to support licensing and speed regulation for non-commercial road use were better known, that the majority of people would change their driving habits for the worse?

From where I see it, the laws and the minimal amount of manpower available to enforce them aren't really much of a deterrent. If people want to do otherwise they can do that right now with a low risk of being caught. The New York incident is a perfect example of this. Hundreds participated, a select few were caught.

... (deleted a bunch of my usual drivel) ...

I prefer to live in the real world, perceiving the actual threats, rather than participate in some kind of mass hypnosis experiment where the collective belief is seldom realized by any individual of the collective, in practice.

YMMV
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MotoTex screwed with this post 10-21-2013 at 10:17 AM
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:49 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Do you believe that if the knowledge that there is no actual law to support licensing and speed regulation for non-commercial road use were better known that the majority of people would change their driving habits for the worse?
What planet are you on?
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:17 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Earth Rider View Post
What planet are you on?
What does this question have to do with what you quoted?
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:21 AM   #154
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Speaking from experience, I'm pretty sure too.
Please, tell me more about your experience.
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:00 AM   #155
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What does this question have to do with what you quoted?
Well, if there were no laws against speeding would you change your driving habits? I know I would.
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:31 AM   #156
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Hey Tex...


http://www.privateislandsonline.com/
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:33 AM   #157
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Well, if there were no laws against speeding would you change your driving habits? I know I would.

I already know this is true, and my habits haven't changed. If anything I'm probably more "law abiding" now than before.

In what way would your habits change?

Would you take more chances while in traffic?

Would you drive significantly faster than the vehicles sharing the road with you?

If so, what stops you from doing this now?

If you would become a danger to yourself and those around you without the threat of law, and, if this would represent the feelings of the majority, then I may be mistaken to put such faith in other humans ability to reason after all.
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:35 AM   #158
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The entry fee is beyond my pay grade, and there's just not enough room to ride.
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:45 AM   #159
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How would my habits change? I would sometimes drive faster than the current speed limit. Why don't I do that now? I don't want speeding tickets.
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:00 PM   #160
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How would my habits change? I would sometimes drive faster than the current speed limit. Why don't I do that now? I don't want speeding tickets.
Maybe it is different where you are, but I usually drive faster than the posted speed limit. Mostly because everyone else on the road is going faster. They've recently raised the posted limit to 75 on the rural highway here. I'm usually going about 78-81 and have met many a LEO at these speeds without so much as an eye-blink from them.

So often I get knee-jerk reactions where folks express how they feel that without the idea of squiggly lines in a book somewhere keeping them safe that everyone (except themselves, of course) would suddenly become rabid maniacs behind the bars or wheel of their vehicle. I think such a black/white polarized assessment is absurd.

It seems that this isn't what you were suggesting. Thanks for clearing it up.
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:06 PM   #161
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I mean, I do that a bit here too but in NY the state speed limit is 65. Anything above 75 and you're risking a ticket. You could very safely go 85 on the Thruway.

My last ticket was 47 in a 35. 30 or 35 is pretty slow for a four-lane thoroughfare. So yeah, I think my habits would change a bit.
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:19 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Maybe you haven't been to court. You see, this is how courts work. Either they can prove their prosecution, or, they can't. In this case they were unable to. Period. They couldn't meet the basic tests of jurisdiction to muddle it through the arraignment process.
Meaning that the law itself was never challenged.
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:55 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Earth Rider View Post
I mean, I do that a bit here too but in NY the state speed limit is 65. Anything above 75 and you're risking a ticket. You could very safely go 85 on the Thruway.

My last ticket was 47 in a 35. 30 or 35 is pretty slow for a four-lane thoroughfare. So yeah, I think my habits would change a bit.
A few decades back I was told by a friend who was a cop that their policy was to not write tickets unless the speed exceeded 10% plus 2 mph over the posted. This seems reasonable if the posted speed is appropriate for the road. I don't know if anything like this is a standard.

However, if traffic is light and conditions merit it, 47 in a posted 35 zone shouldn't be a problem. Especially if it is multi-lane.

The statute here states the speed MUST be reasonable and prudent for the conditions. There is no statute indicating any punishment for exceeding the posted speed.

The fines are not part of state law, just part of the local administrative court's proceedings. Most people find it more convenient to pay the fine than to take multiple days off from work as they jack you around the court of record in order to get it dismissed. The case can be won. It is never easy to do so.

While working on a radio in a police car I had an officer relate a story about him appearing in court for a contested ticket he had written. The defendant submitted a notarized affidavit stating that his car was in good repair, he was rested and alert, the road conditions were light traffic in clear weather in the daytime and he was traveling a reasonable and prudent speed for the conditions.

The officer was amazed that the judge let him off. That story stuck in the back of my mind for years until other research turned up how this had played out that day for the driver.

In the statutes the signs are styled something like "Prima Facie posted Reasonable and Prudent Speed Limit." What this means is that an engineer presumably determined what speed the worse case scenario would reasonably allow (semi, at night, in the rain?) and, in the absence of actual evidence the sign represents Prima Facie evidence of a reasonable and prudent speed. (prima facie essentially means "on the face" or something that "appears to be ...")

The driver's affidavit was submitted as actual signed evidence refuting the claim by the officer. Actual evidence trumps Prima Facie evidence. The burden then shifted to the prosecutor to produce his own evidence (other than Prima Facie) that the speed wasn't reasonable and prudent. Which, without an injured party seeking reparation for damages, is impossible.

The traffic court system is designed so the path of least resistance is paying the fine and going on with your life. This seems a dishonest method to separate the mark from his money and seems like a con job perpetrated upon a willing populace by those elected or hired in positions of public trust. For me, this behavior is a violation of that trust.

I'm not the only one out there who knows and applies these strategies. Is it a waste of time? Maybe. To me it is mostly about the principle of the thing.

These fellers in Canada are probably waaaaay behind the curve on learning how to approach this sort of thing there, if it would even work for them under Canadian legal process.

There needs to be a way to reign in drivers that create a hazard the way these guys and the stunters in NYC did. I don't think speeding tickets are the answer.
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Old 10-21-2013, 01:10 PM   #164
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Meaning that the law itself was never challenged.
Correct! I was waiting for someone to notice. YOU WIN!

That is the toughest thing about the good fight, as it were. There is nothing left to challenge after it is over. You go your way, they go theirs and often the record is sealed, from what I've heard, so public access is not allowed.

But that is okay as there is nothing wrong with the law. The statute is fine just the way it is. There is nothing to be challenged, that's why the case is dismissed. Bingo! All I got away with was being a law-abiding citizen.

How it is processed in court is where the deception/obfuscation lies. They will hustle you though the arraignment process presuming you have no plans to challenge jurisdiction. If you let it get past arraignment you have tacitly given permission for you (as a member of the body politic) to sue yourself (as the recipient of the ticket) for harming yourself (as a member of the body politic). It is all a clever and complex ruse skirting the edges of the envelope and besmirching the intent of due process.

Welcome to Wonderland!
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MotoTex screwed with this post 10-21-2013 at 01:20 PM
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:11 PM   #165
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That is two weeks in jail in New Jersey, and I've watched the judge hand out three or four in a day.
Which, I want to point out for hilarity, is a state that routinely tolerates 80 mph on the highway.

So,

80 mph, not even a second glance.
90 mph, ticket from a VERY rude and angry man in a scary uniform.
100 mph, jail.

And, don't ask me how I know this, but the cops themselves like to race each other in plain sight on the highways here, weaving in and out of traffic without lights or sirens....

But hey, I guess I see their point. After all, smashing into someone at 80 mph only imparts 888,888,888,888 Newton meters of force, enough to smash your skull into dust and pitch your organs out of your body like Randy Johnson. But 100 mph, you must be crazy!

After I learned to fly, and compared the freedom they allow trained pilots versus the average Dunning-Kruger schlub on the road, I realized the whole thing was ridiculous and stopped trying to make sense of it. The whole thing reeks of irrational fear and dubious "science", along with a lot of loud cranky voters.

The plain fact is, the road is a sausage grinder and there ain't nothing safe about it. The laws and the rules of the road end up being two totally different things in practice.
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