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Old 11-17-2013, 09:28 AM   #136
mikem9 OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max384 View Post
I have two boys, age 9 and 10. I bought them both their first dirt bikes this year. They LOVE riding. They just can't get enough (and neither can I!). They both love seeing my pictures and hearing my stories of my trips on my street bike. They talk about being able to ride with me on trips when they're adults. I can't wait to do trips with my kids when they're adults...

But this thought also terrifies me. I know the dangers of riding on the street. I've wrecked on the street before, and I've had my fair share of close calls. However, I also know the joys of riding. And I also realize that the statistics aren't representative of all riders. Alcohol over the legal limit plays a role in something like 50% of fatal motorcycle accidents. Helmetless riders comprise something like 60-70% of motorcycle fatalities. Speeding also plays a considerable role in motorcycle fatalities. Most motorcyclists don't actively seek out training on a regular basis. However, even the most safety-conscious riders sometimes die riding. I am ATGATT, I don't drink and ride (well, I might have A beer on occasion), I rarely speed excessively, and I take a motorcycle safety course every year. I can only hope that my influence and instruction will make my children safe riders.

I won't allow my kids to ride a street bike until they are at least 18. I want them to have road experience in a car first.
To me, this sounds like a very good perspective.
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Old 11-17-2013, 12:26 PM   #137
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mikem9 -

I don't think that telling kids what they can and can't do out of "concern" for them is healthy. In the case of a motorcycle or car, once they reach the age to get a license, they're going to be one of two things: smart enough to handle the responsibility, or still to dumb to handle the responsibility. They'll figure out which category they fall into at some time or another, and protecting them from finding out early on is only going to make the result all that much worse when they finally do figure it out.


It pains me to see so much handwringing about how dangerous it is to ride, etc, etc. I don't care HOW dangerous it is. I wish that I'd had the opportunity to have a legitimately dangerous interest, than to be in the position I'm in now because of a LACK of the opportunity.




Different perspectives, I guess.

It's not handwringing Daniel. It's a discussion. like sitting around a campfire with a bunch of riding buddies. If I have the correct info, you are 21 years old. Sounds like you feel you were over protected by your parents. Your perspective is interesting to the conversation and as a parent we can certainly err in one direction or another - over protection or under protection. But, if you are not a parent, once you become one, you will better understand why I ask the question.
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Old 11-17-2013, 12:28 PM   #138
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My son rode dirt since he was 5. Started him on a 50, then an 80 a 125 and a 250. We did some MX and Hare Scrambles together. When he got his license and wanted a street bike I told him he could ride street when he bought his own bike.

I have ridden street for forty years now but even though he was a good rider, I didn't want to put him on a street bike. I was OK with him doing it but wanted him to make the decision and see how badly he wanted it.

He didn't get the street bike then and soon got married and had a bunch of kids. No time to ride now but I suspect he will get back to riding in a few years.
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Old 11-17-2013, 02:56 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by TheDrifter View Post
I do find the perception of a car being so much safer than a motorcycle, to be a bit...odd. It may be safer for the driver, but, if you're concerned about your children, why would you allow, encourage, enable, or assist them in driving a vehicle that weighs, in many cases, in excess of four thousand pounds, where a careless mistake on their part, can kill someone else. With a bike, you mess up, you get hurt. With a car, you mess up, the other guy (rider, pedestrian, equestrian, etc) gets hurt. Better to learn by hurting yourself, rather than others, especially given the way the average 16-25 year old drives.
I'm sorry, but this is a load of crap. I understand you're young and don't have kids, but did you actually read what you wrote?
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Old 11-17-2013, 05:40 PM   #140
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A Young Rider's Perspective

I'll weigh in as a young rider. I started riding on gravel at age 8 on a little Honda 50, if I couldn't kick it over I couldn't ride it. I quickly learned how to ride and by age 13 I was riding an 81' XL250s. I rode regularly and at age 16 I took the BRC. Out of the entire process, I received a perfect score. After the BRC, I was eased into road riding. I borrowed my dad's CX500, as he didn't ride it much. My parents would not allow me to take the CX to school my sophomore year, so I rode the back roads everyday when I got home. That summer, I started taking the CX to marching band practice (I was duped into it!) I was very familiar with the 15.8 mile stretch there, and it served as a good way to improve my riding in traffic. All through my junior year I rode whenever possible on the roads in and around my home and school. Having saved and invested money (long story) I bought my TransAlp. I then took the endorsement test on the Alp and passed with a perfect score. I continued riding through all of high school.
I've never been in an accident while riding on the street, and never involved in a car accident. Riding a motorcycle made me a much more vigilant driver. Neither of my parents had a problem with me riding, but I partially account that to my mother and father having toured extensively on a Goldwing. That being said, it takes a certain type of person to ride a motorcycle at a young age. Many of my classmates who did motocross participated in very stupid and illegal activities on motorcycles. To all you parents out there, if you feel confident in your son or daughter's ability to ride I don't see why you should stop them. But please get them some dirt experience. I cannot count the number of times that knowledge of how to control a motorcycle on less than ideal terrain has helped me on the road.
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Old 11-17-2013, 06:47 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by TheDrifter View Post
What did I miss?


Here's my reason for what I said.

From when I was thirteen to fifteen, I yoked my team of working steers I was training, and drove them to a pasture one mile down the road, then walked or biked home. That was four miles, every day.

In those four miles, rarely did a day go by where I wasn't almost run over, harassed, or somehow messed with by someone in a car. These car drivers did not feel threatened by the possibility that if they messed with my animals and they spooked, running in front of the car, that they - the driver - could be hurt. On a bike, you learn what respect is. Respect for road conditions, people or animals in the road, etc.

I think maybe you are reading too much into what I said there - I'm simply pointing out how I see it, having spent an inordinate amount of time on the brunt end of the stupidity and carelessness of drivers that never got a lesson on how their actions could affect themselves or others.
You're advocating that children learn to drive on the road on a motorcycle so that they hurt (or kill) themselves instead of others. If you had children, you would likely appreciate how ludicrous this suggestion is. I'm not saying that someone can't learn the road on a motorcycle, but it's not generally regarded as a good choice, and particularly not for the reasons you stated.

Also, if you almost got run over, harassed, or somehow messed with by someone in a car on a daily basis, the problem was not with the drivers, it was with you... Or you're exaggerating.
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Old 11-17-2013, 07:53 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by TheDrifter View Post
Again, you're reading top much into what I said. It's just interesting how concerned everyone is for THEIR kid, seemingly forgetting that driving a car does not a good driver make. I apparently suck at communicating what I mean...

As for the second part of your post, I genuinely would like to know where you're going with that. I'm not seeing how I, with a team of steers, yoked up, and often drawing a small trailer (with reflective materials, and eventually a yellow warning strobe powered by a 12v battery) was a "problem" as you put it. I'm legitimately asking here...
We'll just agree to disagree with the first part.

It is not normal to have that many close calls with drivers. When the number of close calls (whether walking, in your car, on a motorcycle, etc.) you experience far outnumbers what is a normal acceptable range, the first thing you need to do is to look at yourself. It's very easy to say everyone else on the road is at fault... But that's not the most likely case... It could be though. I wasn't there.
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Old 11-17-2013, 07:54 PM   #143
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My kids ride
My father rode
Scary yes
Lucky none of them
Are crazy like
Their dad.
Cheers
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Old 11-18-2013, 08:34 AM   #144
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I came back to this thread and skipped the middle bits, but I am getting ready to put a 16-year-old on a dual sport and spend the next season transitioning his dirt skills (he's a quick little guy!) to back road riding. It is my clear intention to help him gain experience with other responsible riders on a machine that resembles what he's already riding (dirt bikes).

It is my opinion that he "might" mimic responsible behavior if he's surrounded by it during the next year or so. The missus and I have some longer trips planned out and there's opportunity for rides close to home as well.

Note, I put my foot down when my brother wanted to give/loan/whatever the boy a dedicated street bike (a "sport bike" if you will). Not that the old street bike was bad, but I thought the horsepower and size a bit excessive for my son. So, I have hopefully made the right decision and we will continue to ride together a little longer and he will get the chance to see proper riding.

So, we are not INFLUENCING him to ride street bikes, we are trying to INFLUENCE his responsible use of the moto. In fact, my fear is that without our guidance he will joyride a buddy's CBR/GSXR/RR/Fastmofugger and use his limited knowledge to smash himself up.

Sigh...I'm nervous too.

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Old 11-22-2013, 07:50 AM   #145
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Well I will toss in my $.02, and I come from a position most can't speak from, as I lost my eldest son 4 years ago, to a MC crash when he encountered a 15" + wide tar snake in the rain on a corner.

We are a riding family, Wife and the 3 boy's all rode, and still ride even after the accident. If I could go back, I would not change a thing.

I agree you start teaching them young, as soon as my kids were tall enough to see out the windows of the car, I started teaching them situational awareness, instead of finding different license plates, we played, where did that car come from, or what is that drivers next move.

This is from a post shortly after the accident.

It was hard at first, but as I began to find more and more pictures of his life, good memories flooded in to reinforced my belief that it is all about the life, not the passing. I truly believe Kevin lived a good one. As a family we traveled frequently taking annual and numerous other vacations. Kevin, his two brothers and the wife I spent a month traveling the Rockies in the '94. We had traveled all over the east coast and Canada numerous times. As a family we skied and motorcycled, we even took the entire family to the Alps to ride in 2004 for two weeks.

As I reflected and realized that even though he was with us a short time, we squeezed out more than many would in several life times. No, we were not wealthy, but we were frugal and rather than spend money on the material goods, invested in the family. The wife and I both agree, particularly in retrospect, that this was one of the best decisions we made in our lives.

Those here know the dangers of riding, in fact a few times when others have expressed concern about letting other family members take up this sport, I was always an advocate. In spite of living through what people fear most, I still am. I will say it again, motorcycling was, and still is, one of the threads that bind the fabric of our family. I truly believe that in spite of the recent events, I still am ahead.

Kevin was the eldest, and as children inevitably do, set out to start his own life. Many times contact with the family diminishes greatly, as they forge their own path and pick their way through life, and although this was the case at times, we stayed close because of our shared affection for riding. Kevin had his motorcycle license before his car license, and always loved riding. In his adult life we took numerous day and weekend trips, did several track days together, shared the social aspect of riding with a bunch of people from the area, and of course took our last "Family Vacation" when we all went to Europe to ride in 2004. None of this would have happened without the shared interest in two wheels.



So yes, like CSN&Y said "Teach your Children Well"

Riding was and still is a large part of our family dynamic, in fact we went back to the Alps with our other adult son's again in 2011, and we continue to take numerous family rides.

Let's face it no one gets out of life alive, so it is best to pack as much living as possible in the time we have.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:18 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
Well I will toss in my $.02, and I come from a position most can't speak from, as I lost my eldest son 4 years ago, to a MC crash when he encountered a 15" + wide tar snake in the rain on a corner.

We are a riding family, Wife and the 3 boy's all rode, and still ride even after the accident. If I could go back, I would not change a thing.

I agree you start teaching them young, as soon as my kids were tall enough to see out the windows of the car, I started teaching them situational awareness, instead of finding different license plates, we played, where did that car come from, or what is that drivers next move.

This is from a post shortly after the accident.

It was hard at first, but as I began to find more and more pictures of his life, good memories flooded in to reinforced my belief that it is all about the life, not the passing. I truly believe Kevin lived a good one. As a family we traveled frequently taking annual and numerous other vacations. Kevin, his two brothers and the wife I spent a month traveling the Rockies in the '94. We had traveled all over the east coast and Canada numerous times. As a family we skied and motorcycled, we even took the entire family to the Alps to ride in 2004 for two weeks.

As I reflected and realized that even though he was with us a short time, we squeezed out more than many would in several life times. No, we were not wealthy, but we were frugal and rather than spend money on the material goods, invested in the family. The wife and I both agree, particularly in retrospect, that this was one of the best decisions we made in our lives.

Those here know the dangers of riding, in fact a few times when others have expressed concern about letting other family members take up this sport, I was always an advocate. In spite of living through what people fear most, I still am. I will say it again, motorcycling was, and still is, one of the threads that bind the fabric of our family. I truly believe that in spite of the recent events, I still am ahead.

Kevin was the eldest, and as children inevitably do, set out to start his own life. Many times contact with the family diminishes greatly, as they forge their own path and pick their way through life, and although this was the case at times, we stayed close because of our shared affection for riding. Kevin had his motorcycle license before his car license, and always loved riding. In his adult life we took numerous day and weekend trips, did several track days together, shared the social aspect of riding with a bunch of people from the area, and of course took our last "Family Vacation" when we all went to Europe to ride in 2004. None of this would have happened without the shared interest in two wheels.



So yes, like CSN&Y said "Teach your Children Well"

Riding was and still is a large part of our family dynamic, in fact we went back to the Alps with our other adult son's again in 2011, and we continue to take numerous family rides.

Let's face it no one gets out of life alive, so it is best to pack as much living as possible in the time we have.
Thanks for sharing.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:49 PM   #147
mikem9 OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
Well I will toss in my $.02, and I come from a position most can't speak from, as I lost my eldest son 4 years ago, to a MC crash when he encountered a 15" + wide tar snake in the rain on a corner.

We are a riding family, Wife and the 3 boy's all rode, and still ride even after the accident. If I could go back, I would not change a thing.

I agree you start teaching them young, as soon as my kids were tall enough to see out the windows of the car, I started teaching them situational awareness, instead of finding different license plates, we played, where did that car come from, or what is that drivers next move.

This is from a post shortly after the accident.

It was hard at first, but as I began to find more and more pictures of his life, good memories flooded in to reinforced my belief that it is all about the life, not the passing. I truly believe Kevin lived a good one. As a family we traveled frequently taking annual and numerous other vacations. Kevin, his two brothers and the wife I spent a month traveling the Rockies in the '94. We had traveled all over the east coast and Canada numerous times. As a family we skied and motorcycled, we even took the entire family to the Alps to ride in 2004 for two weeks.

As I reflected and realized that even though he was with us a short time, we squeezed out more than many would in several life times. No, we were not wealthy, but we were frugal and rather than spend money on the material goods, invested in the family. The wife and I both agree, particularly in retrospect, that this was one of the best decisions we made in our lives.

Those here know the dangers of riding, in fact a few times when others have expressed concern about letting other family members take up this sport, I was always an advocate. In spite of living through what people fear most, I still am. I will say it again, motorcycling was, and still is, one of the threads that bind the fabric of our family. I truly believe that in spite of the recent events, I still am ahead.

Kevin was the eldest, and as children inevitably do, set out to start his own life. Many times contact with the family diminishes greatly, as they forge their own path and pick their way through life, and although this was the case at times, we stayed close because of our shared affection for riding. Kevin had his motorcycle license before his car license, and always loved riding. In his adult life we took numerous day and weekend trips, did several track days together, shared the social aspect of riding with a bunch of people from the area, and of course took our last "Family Vacation" when we all went to Europe to ride in 2004. None of this would have happened without the shared interest in two wheels.



So yes, like CSN&Y said "Teach your Children Well"

Riding was and still is a large part of our family dynamic, in fact we went back to the Alps with our other adult son's again in 2011, and we continue to take numerous family rides.

Let's face it no one gets out of life alive, so it is best to pack as much living as possible in the time we have.
Speechless. So sorry for your loss. Thanks for giving us your thoughts.

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Old 11-22-2013, 03:33 PM   #148
max384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PFFOG View Post
Well I will toss in my $.02, and I come from a position most can't speak from, as I lost my eldest son 4 years ago, to a MC crash when he encountered a 15" + wide tar snake in the rain on a corner.

We are a riding family, Wife and the 3 boy's all rode, and still ride even after the accident. If I could go back, I would not change a thing.

I agree you start teaching them young, as soon as my kids were tall enough to see out the windows of the car, I started teaching them situational awareness, instead of finding different license plates, we played, where did that car come from, or what is that drivers next move.

This is from a post shortly after the accident.

It was hard at first, but as I began to find more and more pictures of his life, good memories flooded in to reinforced my belief that it is all about the life, not the passing. I truly believe Kevin lived a good one. As a family we traveled frequently taking annual and numerous other vacations. Kevin, his two brothers and the wife I spent a month traveling the Rockies in the '94. We had traveled all over the east coast and Canada numerous times. As a family we skied and motorcycled, we even took the entire family to the Alps to ride in 2004 for two weeks.

As I reflected and realized that even though he was with us a short time, we squeezed out more than many would in several life times. No, we were not wealthy, but we were frugal and rather than spend money on the material goods, invested in the family. The wife and I both agree, particularly in retrospect, that this was one of the best decisions we made in our lives.

Those here know the dangers of riding, in fact a few times when others have expressed concern about letting other family members take up this sport, I was always an advocate. In spite of living through what people fear most, I still am. I will say it again, motorcycling was, and still is, one of the threads that bind the fabric of our family. I truly believe that in spite of the recent events, I still am ahead.

Kevin was the eldest, and as children inevitably do, set out to start his own life. Many times contact with the family diminishes greatly, as they forge their own path and pick their way through life, and although this was the case at times, we stayed close because of our shared affection for riding. Kevin had his motorcycle license before his car license, and always loved riding. In his adult life we took numerous day and weekend trips, did several track days together, shared the social aspect of riding with a bunch of people from the area, and of course took our last "Family Vacation" when we all went to Europe to ride in 2004. None of this would have happened without the shared interest in two wheels.



So yes, like CSN&Y said "Teach your Children Well"

Riding was and still is a large part of our family dynamic, in fact we went back to the Alps with our other adult son's again in 2011, and we continue to take numerous family rides.

Let's face it no one gets out of life alive, so it is best to pack as much living as possible in the time we have.
So sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing this with the rest of us.
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