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Old 10-27-2013, 03:53 PM   #31
tastroman OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buls4evr View Post
So Honda builds you 2 bikes in this category OP and you don't like them... The CB500X and the NC700X (a 700 with 450 performance). No bike will do everything. It is a wonder any mfgrs want to do this at all after getting burned on this size bike in the 80s (Dakez has it right). If you are a runt you need to know about KoubaLinks. The aftermarket exists to customize your bike in every way. A seat can be made any way you want it by a number of companies. You need to remember a bike on a showroom floor is set up just as it came in the crate and might fit a guy 6-4! You have to imagine how adjustable it is.It is not easy, nor is this a hobby for the lazy, non-mechanical person.
The 500x sparks my interest but I read it's not much good off road. Also' I'm not a big fan of the beak.
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Old 10-27-2013, 04:13 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by tastroman View Post
The 500x sparks my interest but I read it's not much good off road. Also' I'm not a big fan of the beak.
I think the CB500X would be fine offroad with a sturdy skid and some long-travel forks that allow a 21" wheel and knob. The CB500X ABS might be tougher to do though, if you want to retain the ABS.
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Kommando screwed with this post 10-29-2013 at 06:48 PM
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Old 10-27-2013, 04:15 PM   #33
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Its fun to hash this stuff out over and over.

A 350/450 has enough power to slab, and nice torque in the dirt.
It should be light, but most modern Japanese bikes are not.

The addition of liquid cooling and other EPA equipment, and silly things like electric start makes the weight go up.

The Euro guys build things wimpy like race bikes and get the weight down, but they are not sturdy.

People seem to want a gold wing on the street, and a ktm in the dirt.
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Old 10-27-2013, 09:01 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by NJ-Brett View Post
..... and silly things like electric start makes the weight go up.
........
My right knee doesn't think the electric start is at all silly. Extra weight: Yes. Silly: NO.
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:47 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by tastroman View Post
I'm not sure where you are seeing misconceptions as my op was a question and not an answer. And I ride every day, year round mostly on a 250cc scooter, which lead me to start the thread. The scooter is 360lbs, has storage, great weather protection and is fairly comfortable, it just sucks off road.

I'm not sure why a 250-350cc 80/20 bike would need to weigh 450lbs but if you say so.
Well, there is the Aprilia RSV 450 twin. It probably weighs about what my Yamaha weighs. They don't have much oil capacity, though, and they are probably not that comfortable either. Not sure what they cost when they were made, but I suspect they were expensive. KTM makes a 350cc dual sport called an EXC-F. My son had one. It weights about 250/260lbs ready to ride. Has a six speed gearbox and a top speed near 100mph. Small oil capacity and hard enduro ergonomics. But it is a DS bike. They are around $9k.

Regarding my weight projection, you specifically referenced a V-Strom, which is a street bike tweaked for modest dirt capability. The V-strom is a heavy motorcycle. Plus it has cast aluminum wheels. If you added a proper steel spoke wheel set, you would add about 20lbs. You could look at a few other similarly intended models like the Kaw Versys, and you still end up with a very heavy motorcycle. Shrinking the bore and stroke isn't going to save much weight.

My Yamaha weighs 298lbs wet as a stocker. It has a compact motor with large oil capacity that is actually a slice off an R1 Superbike motor. It has an aluminum twin spar chassis modeled after the YZ race bikes, yet beefed up with a steel rear subframe for hauling luggage. It has modern, lightweight suspension components like USD forks and aluminum shock with linkage. As a result of these more costly components, it is nearly as expensive as a YZF. I point this out because it would appear nobody is going to be able to produce the bike you envision that will come within 100lbs and $$$ MSRP of the little WRR. At least, that is my best guess.

I am surprised to read your 250cc scooter weights about 360lbs. That is impressive so I see where you are coming from. But it is still a lot heavier than my Yam. Also a Suzy DR650 weights about the same I think. So the products are already out there for you if your criteria is weight and decent off road and travel capability.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:58 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ-Brett View Post
...The Euro guys build things wimpy like race bikes and get the weight down, but they are not sturdy...
And you're basing this on years of personally owning said Euro bikes, and personally seeing the effects of them being "not sturdy"?
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Old 10-28-2013, 06:05 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by tastroman View Post
The 500x sparks my interest but I read it's not much good off road. Also' I'm not a big fan of the beak.
the first thing you said was you wanted something 80% street oriented, now you're saying it wouldn't be good offroad.
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Old 10-28-2013, 07:04 AM   #38
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you realize that something like a baby weestrom would also suck offroad because it wouldn't be a dirt-oriented bike? seems like you don't know what you want.
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Old 10-28-2013, 08:39 AM   #39
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No, but I can read.
Some are better, but most seem to have a problem doing 2000 miles on an oil change and last for 80,000 miles without motor work.

The wr250 does seem to be the best Japanese bike out there, its modern and expensive. It just needs to be offered as a 350 for more torque, which could be done easy with no other motor changes besides retuning the fuel injection.

The drz400 also comes close, it just needs a good transmission.

What bugs people is the simple changes needed to make current bikes usefull in the US.

50 or 100 cc's added, better transsissions, a little less weight.
In the old days, some bikes were quite light for their size, without any (or very little) thought of weight saving.

Bikes used to have very light wimpy exhaust systems, single wall thin tubing, no electric start, small batteries and charging systems.

In 1969, Triumph could make a 500cc twin and get it under 380 pounds with NO plastic on the bike, iron cylinders, massive crankshaft, etc.

In 1974, the sl350 was 374 pounds for a 350cc twin.

In 1982, an XT250 was 275 pounds wet, an xt200 was 220 pounds wet.

In 2013, the xt250 is 291 pounds (air cooled), a CRF250L is 320 pounds, and the expensive modern wr250 is about 300 pounds.

The wr250 makes good peak power, but otherwise, the power to weight ratio has gone noplace for 20 or 30 years.

Everyone in the US would be better off if all the bikes were 350's.

And it would be so easy and cheap to change bikes for the US and Europe, where speed limits are a bit higher then is some other places, a little more bore and stroke with no other major changes, or the addition of a gear (or different gear ratios) in the trans, and bingo, you have a good dual sport, and a good motor for a smaller street bike.

But we get the new 400 pound 250 from Suzuki with the new liquid cooled twin motor. The dr650 is 360 pounds!
We are going the wrong way!







Quote:
Originally Posted by bobnoxious67 View Post
And you're basing this on years of personally owning said Euro bikes, and personally seeing the effects of them being "not sturdy"?
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:40 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Earth Rider View Post
the first thing you said was you wanted something 80% street oriented, now you're saying it wouldn't be good offroad.

"You will have to pardon my ignorance as I have never taken a cross country trip and minus a couple gravel roads it's been 35 years since I've piloted a dirt bike but I'm wondering why has no manufacturer released a sub 500cc 80% street, 20% dirt ADV bike. I know there are a couple dirt oriented offerings and I'm familiar with the current crop of 650's but I'm thinking more along the lines of something in the 300-400cc range. Something like a baby Wee Strom.
I'm certainly not suggesting there should be, I'm more just curious as to why a bike like this would fail as a cross country mover. "
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Try reading the op again.

Also, I said I read the 500x was not really designed for off road, more just given the look. I've personally never ridden one or even seen one for that matter. The origin of this thread is more about why a 250-400cc bike that's comfortable but also light weight is not offered stock as part of the ADV segment. I'm more just looking for input from those with ADV experiance. I admitted in the op that I'm a noob when it comes to off road but I will say I'm more comfortable with the weight of my scooter when the going gets tough than I am with the weight of my Buell.
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Old 10-28-2013, 11:43 AM   #41
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I've got an XR400 and the only thing holding it back is the lack of a 6th gear and the fact that it is 15 years old and hung with billy goat sprockets. It can still do 80 on the highway, not that I would want to for any extended period of time. It is suitable for my 1 hour commute to the trail on the state highway.

The DRZ400 is pretty much standard issue in the NJ pine barrens, especially amongst locals who are all riding in. That alone speaks to the wholesome, American pie value of the 400 class thumper.

Factor in the success of the WR250 and the streetability of the new CRF250L, and I think we are indeed headed toward the inevitable renewal of the 400 class dual-sport as others have said. Hell, they never stopped selling the XR400 in Japan (albeit as a motard) so the production line is still there.

The problem is that the DRZ and the XR lasted forever and saturated the market. IF Honda and Yamaha were going to redesign new 400 class bikes, the sales would taper off quickly as this market saturation would quickly happen again, in competition with the fact that Suzuki never left.

That being said, given the extraordinary versatility of the old generation of 400s, I would think that an updated Japanese design could be the last dual-sport any of us would ever want or need. If they could reliably make the engine freer revving, and ensure a 6th notch in the tranny, you could have a relatively light dual-sport that can have both sprockets low enough for the tough stuff and enough rev-range to keep up with the flow of traffic on the highway without burning all your oil. The technology is ripe for the picking as the switch from 2-strokes to 4-strokes happened long after the last gen 400 dual-sports were designed.

If the 250s continue to sell, sooner or later someone is going to try to unseat Suzuki....and I look forward to it with great relish.
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Old 10-28-2013, 12:37 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by tastroman View Post
The origin of this thread is more about why a 250-400cc bike that's comfortable but also light weight is not offered stock as part of the ADV segment.
What do you mean by comfortable? Like with a windscreen and a better seat?
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:29 PM   #43
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Windscreens are for sissies.
If you have to, you can bolt one on for winter.

We had no windshields when I was young, and seats were boards with nails in them, and we rode barefoot with serrated pegs. In the snow.

Actually, seats were MUCH better, no one ever changed a seat except for style, stock seats were good for all day rides.
Another modern improvement, thin narrow seats right off a motocross bike, or a trials bike, and its popular to put some really bad seat on a street bike these days.
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Old 10-28-2013, 01:42 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Earth Rider View Post
What do you mean by comfortable? Like with a windscreen and a better seat?


Exactly. Also, the older I get the more I appreciate a light weight bike. I find a 550lb plus bike a little intimidating on gravel/muddy roads.
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:12 PM   #45
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So how about a WRR or DRZ and $250 in aftermarket parts.
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