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Old 07-30-2014, 08:18 AM   #256
nachtflug
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Originally Posted by stk0308 View Post
Because there wasn't any other kind of streetbike at those times. Geez, myopic much?
So there were no street bikes prior to 1970 and the Honda product line? F'ing duh.
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Old 07-30-2014, 08:24 AM   #257
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Pretty simple as Dogboy says. As an AMA Pro entry, we paid the license, entry fees, crew fees, garage rental, parking passes and I think that was it. Other than the garage rental, I don't recall paying anything to the track directly. I think I had to apply to DMG for a garage space and once assigned I may have paid it trackside but I don't know if they were DMG people or track people or how the fees are split.

I am pretty sure NASCAR TV fee is split between NASCAR, the host track and also the teams that made the start of the round. I think it was Bob Bahre who explained that to me when he owned Loudon. The TV money is the main source of income for the tracks, which is why Bob Bahre and Bruton Smith bought a short track (North Wilksboro), summarily closed it, and then split it's two TV dates between them and moved to their other respective tracks.

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There is no back gate at an AMA Pro road race. Riders and teams don't pay extra to come "in the back gate" at an AMA Pro Road Race. A couple hundred racers and crew would not offset ticket sales to tens of thousands of fans. I don't believe the tracks participate in the "media fees" like in NASCAR. Networks pay to broadcast NASCAR races and those fees are often split with the track. AMA Pro Racing has always had to buy air time for their races so there are no media fees to split with the track. As Motorcyclist mentioned, no TV at all also equates to no media fees.

For AMA Pro, the track (or a promoter like M1) pay AMA Pro to bring their show to the track. The track makes money by selling sponsorships, vendor space and tickets.
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Old 07-30-2014, 01:37 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by nachtflug View Post
So there were no street bikes prior to 1970 and the Honda product line? F'ing duh.
I think he is saying there were no sport bikes then, or naked bikes because they were just street bikes. They all looked the same.
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:47 PM   #259
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I think he is saying there were no sport bikes then, or naked bikes because they were just street bikes. They all looked the same.
That's also what made the racing then so awesome, taking a standard and doing all the engine, frame, and suspension mods to make it competitive on a track. Watching those guys ride them with the frame flexing, wobbles, tires with the consistency of hockey pucks made the riders other worldly. Pretty cool to see how far you could take a stock bike.

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Old 07-30-2014, 04:36 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by PeteN95 View Post
I think he is saying there were no sport bikes then, or naked bikes because they were just street bikes. They all looked the same.
He doesn't have a clue about what he's trying to say.
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:18 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by nachtflug View Post
He doesn't have a clue about what he's trying to say.
Pete had it right, there were really nothing but naked bikes in that era. Some scramblers, sure, but for the most part the CB750 was selling so well, not on asthetics, or that it was a more sporting model. But on versitility. Which many bikes of the era had. They came as nearly blank slates. You customized them to do what you wanted. Drag race, road race, scramble, what have you. I'm sorry I didn't spell that out for you nachtflug. I thought with your vast experience, and knowledge of all things motorcycle, you'd be able to understand. I see that's a flawed impression and will have to work more dilligently to clarify myself to your ridged mentality.
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Old 07-31-2014, 04:49 AM   #262
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you guys are arguing over something that doesn't matter, roadracing in this country was brought down by the mismanagement and bad decisions of the ama/dmg fiasco, simple as that. It has nothing to do with what bikes are sold in this country. The factories pulled out when dmg brought the rule changes that transformed the series from professional to club racing.
the final nail in the coffin was losing team Jordan, the EXACT type of team they wanted to attract.
the series needs to shut down. Perhaps the dorna rumor will come true and they will run a series here, their Spanish national series seems to be going quite well, despite the fact that the economy in spain absolutely sucks.
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Old 07-31-2014, 08:20 AM   #263
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Motorcycle racing in Spain is huge in 1970 I went to the Spanish MX grand prix over 100,000 then in England any type of motorsport is big. Even in the glory days road racing motorcycles in the US was a niche sport. In the 70's and 80's most of the Daytona race spectators were from Canada and abroad I worked at the airport and Charters of folks from England and Europe flocked in, from Canada we would have a few large charters with bikes and people. Being a local it was easy to get in for free. Road Atlanta was the Sebring of motorcycle racing, a wild party that had more folks riding around on bikes and in cars on the infield road than watching the races. I only went to Mid-Ohio once decent crowd but top notch Euros were riding there along side the Americans. Same with VIR. Take away the top tier riders, corporate sponsorships, fun at the track(strong hand policing at RA)
free or cheap entry (Barber used this in the first few years for locals), no tv coverage, a dysfunctional promotion group and what would you expect.
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Old 07-31-2014, 08:34 AM   #264
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you guys are arguing over something that doesn't matter, roadracing in this country was brought down by the mismanagement and bad decisions of the ama/dmg fiasco, simple as that. It has nothing to do with what bikes are sold in this country. The factories pulled out when dmg brought the rule changes that transformed the series from professional to club racing.
the final nail in the coffin was losing team Jordan, the EXACT type of team they wanted to attract.
the series needs to shut down. Perhaps the dorna rumor will come true and they will run a series here, their Spanish national series seems to be going quite well, despite the fact that the economy in spain absolutely sucks.
Yes. When sales drop by a over two-thirds it doesn't affect discretionary spending from the manufacturers at all. And when high margin bikes stop selling, it doesn't affect discretionary spending from the manufacturers at all. And when the majority of your bikes are sold on credit and your market is out of work, underemployed or can't get credit, it doesn't affect sales, which in turn doesn't affect the budgets for racing.

Your theory about sales not affecting racing is rock solid.

DMG made plenty of big mistakes and continues to make them but whoever took over (or if the old AMA regime had stayed in place) motorcycle road racing was going to take a huge hit in the US because of the economic downturn which continues to hurt the powersports market.
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Old 07-31-2014, 08:50 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by DogBoy View Post
Yes. When sales drop by a over two-thirds it doesn't affect discretionary spending from the manufacturers at all. And when high margin bikes stop selling, it doesn't affect discretionary spending from the manufacturers at all. And when the majority of your bikes are sold on credit and your market is out of work, underemployed or can't get credit, it doesn't affect sales, which in turn doesn't affect the budgets for racing.

Your theory about sales not affecting racing is rock solid.

DMG made plenty of big mistakes and continues to make them but whoever took over (or if the old AMA regime had stayed in place) motorcycle road racing was going to take a huge hit in the US because of the economic downturn which continues to hurt the powersports market.
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:47 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by stk0308 View Post
Pete had it right, there were really nothing but naked bikes in that era. Some scramblers, sure, but for the most part the CB750 was selling so well, not on asthetics, or that it was a more sporting model. But on versitility. Which many bikes of the era had. They came as nearly blank slates. You customized them to do what you wanted. Drag race, road race, scramble, what have you. I'm sorry I didn't spell that out for you nachtflug. I thought with your vast experience, and knowledge of all things motorcycle, you'd be able to understand. I see that's a flawed impression and will have to work more dilligently to clarify myself to your ridged mentality.
thanks in advance I appreciate your efforts.
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:14 PM   #267
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thanks in advance I appreciate your efforts.



As an aside, it appears to me sportbikes are fewer and fewer these days. I'm not sure that sportbikes have that much influence on anything anymore. They are all such old designs. The top middleweight racing platform (R6) is six years old! The CBR600RR is basically the same bike they introduced in 2003. I have no idea when Suzuki last rolled out a new 600, but probably it is 6 years old too. Only Triumph seems to be trying very hard the past three seasons. Not sure when the 675 was introduced but they have a large portion of the AMA middleweight grids these days.

No doubt the collapse of Japanese motorcycle sales in North America chilled passions among the Japanese OEM's. But if the contingency purses offered US club racers is a good indicator, the big four's appetite peaked in 2004.

Does American Honda still have Red Rider Rewards in the off-road disciplines?
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:36 PM   #268
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Old 07-31-2014, 06:36 PM   #269
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my question then, why did motocross and supercross continue to grow and thrive during this time? ALL motorcycle sales were down, yet motocross and supercross continued on, great racing, great crowds, full factory efforts, etc.
and road racing? left to rot on the vine.
what about WSBK and motoGP, neither series has missed a beat for at least a decade, both series providing great racing around the world, factory involvement, hero riders.
and here?
and fuck, even flattrack made it through the economic crisis!!!! and there was already NO money in flattrack.

You can blame the economy all you want, I blame the assholes that took over and fuck it up to the point that it's about to die.
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Old 07-31-2014, 07:36 PM   #270
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If you really think WSBK and MotoGP haven's suffered from the economic downturn, you haven't been paying attention to the last decade. Cost cutting, manufacturers dropping out, engine limits, Dorna subsidies, cancelled races (2 this year for WSBK), tracks no longer on the schedule, only a handful or racers collecting paychecks; any of that ring a bell? Anyway, we're talking about the U.S. market not the international market. The U.S. market is what mostly finances AMA Pro Road Race teams and our market is dependent on high dollar bikes not selling a gazillion scooters.

The MX market is different. No one is financing a new $13,000 CRF450R every two years like they were with GSXR1000s before the downturn. One can race the same MX bike for years. What do you think the cost to operate a national MX track vs. a pro level road race track is? Do you think there might be a significant cost difference in putting on the races at those facilities? I'm guessing SX gets the stadiums pretty cheap because there would be absolutely nothing else going on at Football and baseball stadiums from January through April. Road racing is competing against other racing in prime racing season. Those stadiums are heavily subsidized (unlike most race tracks) and they aren't depending on SX for their main income source.

Flat track is entirely grass roots. Like MX, it doesn't depend on filling multi-million dollar race tracks.

No one is arguing that SX/MX isn't run exceptionally well. Just as no one is arguing that DMG didn't make huge mistakes that continue to damage AMA Pro Road Racing. However, saying the economy isn't a major factor in the decline of US road racing is denying reality. As I've mentioned before in this thread, road racing in general is down in the U.S. IndyCar is a shadow of its former self as are the recently merged sports car racing series. Add up poor management, lack of interest in road racing and, most important, a hurting powersports market and you get the current state of AMA Pro Road Racing.
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