ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > GSpot > Parallel Universe
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-23-2013, 08:06 PM   #166
ebrabaek OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Grand Valley, Colorado
Oddometer: 4,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
EB, let's do some deeper digging on this. It's my understanding that even with Autotune setup, the Dynojet systems are not running in closed loop. Rather the AT setup is used to create a fuel map (for a particular set of conditions) and then that map is loaded into DJ. Once up and running the AT setup is not active.

That is my understanding from reading the various threads here and their technical documentation for the F800GS configs.

Can anybody else elaborate on the Autotune functionality for the F800GS?
Lets keep it simple regarding the DJ, as the more complex discussion should be in that thread. The AT is active over 2% throttle, as will always add/subtract fuel based on it's wideband O2 sensor's input, to keep target AFR, so in essence fueling is based on the O2 sensor to meet target AFR, which makes it closed loop. It just happens to be somewhat not as accurate as it should be. Never the less it is closed loop fueling.
__________________


Erling
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2013, 08:09 PM   #167
ebrabaek OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Grand Valley, Colorado
Oddometer: 4,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Yessir, we'll have you logging very soon!
The couple I work for is actually living in Barton Creek, so I go there often..... But perhaps not until after Dec.
__________________


Erling
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2013, 10:11 PM   #168
jscottyk
Gnarly Adventurer
 
jscottyk's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Oddometer: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Lets keep it simple regarding the DJ, as the more complex discussion should be in that thread. The AT is active over 2% throttle, as will always add/subtract fuel based on it's wideband O2 sensor's input, to keep target AFR, so in essence fueling is based on the O2 sensor to meet target AFR, which makes it closed loop. It just happens to be somewhat not as accurate as it should be. Never the less it is closed loop fueling.
Got it. Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding.
jscottyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2013, 11:17 PM   #169
ebrabaek OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Grand Valley, Colorado
Oddometer: 4,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Got it. Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding.
No worries Scotty.
__________________


Erling
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 01:43 PM   #170
aclundwall
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2013
Location: Rowlett, TX
Oddometer: 102
So, are all you guys taking the rest of the winter off? Some of us want to finish our mods, and you pioneers have dropped the ball!

Seriously...I'm at a point where I need to make a decision...I have my new Twalcom QD headers, and a PC5 w/AT sitting on my bench. I was all set to go this route until this discussion of the XIED. And now I'm waffling!

I have one big question about the XIED system...and it's based on the following assumption: The XIED works by spoofing the measured AF ratio, and reporting it to the BMSK as leaner than it really is...thereby getting the BMSK to calculate new fuel trims to compensate. But, it only works in closed loop, right? The input from the O2 sensors is only used to calculate AF ratio during closed loop operation (or, at least that's my understanding). So, with that said, here's my question: What happens when I'm no longer in closed loop?

Let's say it's a hot TX summer day, and I'm trying to pass a row of slow moving traffic into a headwind...so I'm WOT in 4th or 5th gear. This is going to be open loop operation, for sure. And I'm concerned that with my free-flowing exhaust, and no help from the XIED, what's keeping me from melting down? I know how the PC5/AT handles this situation...but this is the XIED thread, so I'm wondering how that system handles it? I think if I can get comfortable with this, I'd be ready to use the XIED instead of the PC.

Art

P.S. Merry Christmas!
aclundwall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 03:31 PM   #171
ebrabaek OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Grand Valley, Colorado
Oddometer: 4,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by aclundwall View Post
So, are all you guys taking the rest of the winter off? Some of us want to finish our mods, and you pioneers have dropped the ball!

Seriously...I'm at a point where I need to make a decision...I have my new Twalcom QD headers, and a PC5 w/AT sitting on my bench. I was all set to go this route until this discussion of the XIED. And now I'm waffling!

I have one big question about the XIED system...and it's based on the following assumption: The XIED works by spoofing the measured AF ratio, and reporting it to the BMSK as leaner than it really is...thereby getting the BMSK to calculate new fuel trims to compensate. But, it only works in closed loop, right? The input from the O2 sensors is only used to calculate AF ratio during closed loop operation (or, at least that's my understanding). So, with that said, here's my question: What happens when I'm no longer in closed loop?

Let's say it's a hot TX summer day, and I'm trying to pass a row of slow moving traffic into a headwind...so I'm WOT in 4th or 5th gear. This is going to be open loop operation, for sure. And I'm concerned that with my free-flowing exhaust, and no help from the XIED, what's keeping me from melting down? I know how the PC5/AT handles this situation...but this is the XIED thread, so I'm wondering how that system handles it? I think if I can get comfortable with this, I'd be ready to use the XIED instead of the PC.

Art

P.S. Merry Christmas!
...... I know right..... I am sorry, but I actually got to start the bike yesterday for the first time in three weeks. I have been submerged in the delivery of our new plane, and training for it. So to answer your question, The BMSK saves the " add, subtract" values as trims ( adaptation values) and apply them in two stages.....sort of. There is the short term, and long term adapt. values The big thing here, is yes, it is only fooled in Closed loop, but the BMSK knows, and saves the " how much it needs to fool" values, and applies them to open loop fueling. Personally I would take a closed loop system all the time, but as I saw with the DJ stuff..... They did not work good together..... Sorta like a bully, and a nerd....

I still need a few more miles to pass jugement, but I am leaning away from the DJ setup, as the XIED seems to do what it was advertized to do, and more importantly ( and unlike the owners of another fi system here on advr) the makers can, and will back up their claims. Last one might not seems like a big one, but you are tinkering with the motor's dynamics here, and the ramifications are big. And with that said I cannot underscore how important support is.
__________________


Erling
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 09:18 PM   #172
roger 04 rt
Beastly Adventurer
 
roger 04 rt's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Massachusetts
Oddometer: 2,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by aclundwall View Post
...

I have one big question about the XIED system...and it's based on the following assumption: The XIED works by spoofing the measured AF ratio, and reporting it to the BMSK as leaner than it really is...thereby getting the BMSK to calculate new fuel trims to compensate. But, it only works in closed loop, right? The input from the O2 sensors is only used to calculate AF ratio during closed loop operation (or, at least that's my understanding). So, with that said, here's my question: What happens when I'm no longer in closed loop?

Let's say it's a hot TX summer day, and I'm trying to pass a row of slow moving traffic into a headwind...so I'm WOT in 4th or 5th gear. This is going to be open loop operation, for sure. And I'm concerned that with my free-flowing exhaust, and no help from the XIED, what's keeping me from melting down? I know how the PC5/AT handles this situation...but this is the XIED thread, so I'm wondering how that system handles it? I think if I can get comfortable with this, I'd be ready to use the XIED instead of the PC.

Art

P.S. Merry Christmas!
Erling gave you a good description of why the AF-XIED works. His comments about closed loop learning becoming long term trims is right on. I'll try and add some other thoughts.

--Although Closed Loop is "only" below 20-25% throttle, that gets me to over 100 mph cruise on my R1150RT.

--when you roll on throttle from cruise, the BMSK adds an acceleration enrichment to whatever its current fueling is. You can see this in several AFR plots I've made. So by cruising richer your acceleration is richer too.

--You mentioned that the AF-XIED tells the BMSK that the mixture is leaner than it is. A better way to think of it is that the stock sensor switches from 800 mV to 100 mV at 14.7:1 and the AF-XIED makes that transition in voltage at a richer AFR. The BMSK has a closed loop program that add/subtracts fuel until it finds the transition. So rather than fooling the BMSK, it is more like we've put a different reference signal into it.

--You will find that the AF-XIED working cooperatively with the BMSK, preserving all its capabilities--and they are many--is far superior to the PC V which has to disable much of the BMSK.

So when you are cruising on a hot day and pull out to pass, a lambda shifting device like the LC-1 or AF-XIED, will have your bike running richer the moment you roll on throttle and add fuel from there. It is one on the XIED's neatest features.
roger 04 rt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 01:03 PM   #173
ebrabaek OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Grand Valley, Colorado
Oddometer: 4,671
I am still averaging 50 mpg ( both trip computer, and calculated mileage) Bike is still riding nice, which is pretty good, I think as it came from "what ever mode of operation" Limp..... cockeyed.... with the DJ installed, and the amazing part to me, is how it is running almost as powerful, with only one tank behind it. It is hard for me to gauge the idle hop off, as it is totally eliminated with the Rekluse clutch, but I think it is safe to say, that it is non existent, even if I had not had the Rekluse.
__________________


Erling
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 01:36 PM   #174
aclundwall
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2013
Location: Rowlett, TX
Oddometer: 102
I'm not worried about fuel mileage, I was ready for a 15% hit. That's about what I've seen with similar systems in the past. But the fact that I can maintain all the functionality of the BMSK with the XIED is a big attraction. The ease of installation, and the ability to adjust it quickly are also big draws.

I think I'm convinced...I think I'll leave the PC/AT in the box and try the XIED!

Art
aclundwall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 01:40 PM   #175
ebrabaek OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Grand Valley, Colorado
Oddometer: 4,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by aclundwall View Post
I'm not worried about fuel mileage, I was ready for a 15% hit. That's about what I've seen with similar systems in the past. But the fact that I can maintain all the functionality of the BMSK with the XIED is a big attraction. The ease of installation, and the ability to adjust it quickly are also big draws.

I think I'm convinced...I think I'll leave the PC/AT in the box and try the XIED!

Art
I think that is a smart choice. Worst thing.... If you dont like it, you are only out less than half of the DJ boxes.....and the R&R only takes 15 minutes. Not so with the DJ boxes. Personally the way I feel that this is going...... DJ should be worried, as I think the XIED takes the cake..... A few more tanks, and I will verify this.
__________________


Erling

ebrabaek screwed with this post 12-18-2013 at 01:45 PM
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 04:51 PM   #176
itsatdm
Beastly Adventurer
 
itsatdm's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Nor Ca.
Oddometer: 4,732
Hurry up and put some more miles on that bike. You are my Beta tester. I expect to lose a little mileage, just because it is running rich in closed loop.

I can live with that, if it improves the off idle glitch. That is the only fault I find in performance out of a 800cc bike.

For all the farkles I see money spent on, $209 is a drop in bucket, if the bike runs better.
__________________
BMW Motorrad USA customer service: "We make superior motorcycles and continue to improve them."

itsatdm screwed with this post 12-18-2013 at 05:42 PM
itsatdm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 05:09 PM   #177
ebrabaek OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Grand Valley, Colorado
Oddometer: 4,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
Hurry up and put some more miles on that bike. You are my Beta tester. I expect to lose a little mileage, just because it is running rich in closed loop.

I can live with that, if it improves the off idle glitch. That is the only fault I find in performance out of a 800cc bike.

For all the farkles I see money spent on, $209 is a drop in bucket, if the bike runs better.
I can certify that the bike runs better, and by a long shot. The reason I am still holding out, is that I am putting it up against the performance side as well. The DJ setup ran so awesome...... and the fact the XIED is even close is a very good sign. So being a little different with headers and pipe, I am looking at the performance side as well. I will bluntly say this.....
BMW should offer three options with the 8GS......
1) BMW-AF-XIED fuel system....
2) Rekluse Adventure clutch ( a must)
3) Camel tank.

I foresee the makers of those 3 items to sell a boat load in the future, as they are their weight worth in gold.
__________________


Erling
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2013, 04:49 PM   #178
johns78c
Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Location: Central Coast, NSW, Australia
Oddometer: 38
Laugh

I've been waching this thread since the start and thank everyone who has contributed so far!

Do you guys think the AF-XIED would compensate for more involved modifications? Like more aggressive camshaft profiles or turbocharging? Or are we looking at a complete reflash or even replacement ecu?

I'm not saying I want to do these things, I just want to know what the limits of a simple device like the AF-XIED are.
johns78c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2013, 06:13 PM   #179
aclundwall
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2013
Location: Rowlett, TX
Oddometer: 102
I ordered the BMW-AF-XIED last night. Today, I discovered I still had 5 days to return the Dynojet PC-V and AT modules....I thought that ship had long since sailed! So, it's almost like I made $300 by buying the XIED!!!!!
aclundwall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2013, 08:02 PM   #180
roger 04 rt
Beastly Adventurer
 
roger 04 rt's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Massachusetts
Oddometer: 2,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by johns78c View Post
I've been waching this thread since the start and thank everyone who has contributed so far!

Do you guys think the AF-XIED would compensate for more involved modifications? Like more aggressive camshaft profiles or turbocharging? Or are we looking at a complete reflash or even replacement ecu?

I'm not saying I want to do these things, I just want to know what the limits of a simple device like the AF-XIED are.
Because the benefits of a little more fuel than the stock setting of 14.7:1 (really lambda=1) apply generally, we've seen a highly modified R1100, R1150, R1200 and F800 all benefit.

Have a read through this praise (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...8#post23025898) for its effect on a hopped-up R1150 that Mike at BB received today. Give Mike a call, two of his bikes have a lot of mods, he can let you know what to expect.
roger 04 rt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 05:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014