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Old 01-01-2014, 08:26 PM   #181
ebrabaek OP
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Question for you Roger. How is the best environment for adapt values. With the DJ you had to ride all aspects of the range....rpm vs. throttle, to essentially fill the squares. With the BMSK, are the adapt.values for open loop fueling filled by cruising, or to occupy the environment of open loop, sorta like the DJ.
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Old 01-01-2014, 08:35 PM   #182
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Ride update.

At this point, I have about two tank fulls on the XIED on setting #8, and it still does not feel like it has the power of the DJ boxes. Only drawback, I can see at this point, is during hard pulls where the BMSK is in open loop, it perhaps has not adapted enough, and where the DJ just poured fuel at closed loop all the time, the XIED might not have learned enough adapt values to get to 13.8 AFR. That being said. It is acceptable to me, and will stay. I really want to put the bike on Dyno, but for now that is not an option. Mileage is steady around 50 mpg combined, with trail work, or dirt work, slightly higher at 55-60 mpg. If you ask me..... the 8GS should have a adventure option. It should consist of the BMW-AF-XIED, and the Rekluse clutch. It is absolutely silly how this improves the behavior, and capability.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:14 AM   #183
roger 04 rt
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Hi EB, It is not surprising that you found a bit more punch with the PC V given your current settings. If I remember, the minimum fuel being added was 10%, up to 25%+. With your current settings, you're probably adding about 6%. That 4% difference matters.

For fun, you could try setting 9 or even setting 10. Because we don't have a Wideband connected, I'm going to make a guesstimate that setting 9 would get you about 8-9% more fuel and setting 10 would add 10-12% more. On one of those settings it is likely that you'd have the same feel as the PC V setting.

I got some Bosch source documents recently and have made some specific adaptation measurements that I'll be posting in the Wideband O2 thread.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:40 AM   #184
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Hi EB, It is not surprising that you found a bit more punch with the PC V given your current settings. If I remember, the minimum fuel being added was 10%, up to 25%+. With your current settings, you're probably adding about 6%. That 4% difference matters.

For fun, you could try setting 9 or even setting 10. Because we don't have a Wideband connected, I'm going to make a guesstimate that setting 9 would get you about 8-9% more fuel and setting 10 would add 10-12% more. On one of those settings it is likely that you'd have the same feel as the PC V setting.

I got some Bosch source documents recently and have made some specific adaptation measurements that I'll be posting in the Wideband O2 thread.
That is what I was thinking as well. The DJ boxes must have been poured in fuel to the point that it makes no sense. As the AFR started at 13.2, and I ended up at 13.8, which is what the XIED is set at now. I can now see how erroneous those large additions were with the DJ boxes, as I tend to conclude that the XIED has a better AFR control than the DJ boxes. It clearly must be, as the XIED retains the BMSK functionality, and the BMSK is in control, whereas the DJ boxes has the BMSK hooked up to a defibrillator....so to speak.. If the XIED is fairly accurate with the target AFR of 13.8 on setting #8 then I think that is good enough for me for now, I will observe the open loop fueling, a bit longer, as I think that is what gives me a little irritation. When you posts the adapt observations, would you mind to post a copy in here as well, as very little is available about this.

Thanks

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Old 01-02-2014, 08:45 PM   #185
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Here is the beginning of the posts I'm adding on Mixture Adaptation: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...9#post23116079
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:31 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Here is the beginning of the posts I'm adding on Mixture Adaptation: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...9#post23116079
This makes sense. The open loop map is fairly sophisticated and is always correcting itself by checking against the O2 sensor whenever it is able to go to closed loop mode. The only way to bias this system is to bias the O2 sensor signal. The problem with killing the O2 sensor signal to ECU is that the limp home mode is always trying to adjust. A backyard tuner will find it hard to duplicate the open loop map and bias the ECU output to the injectors.

The reason that it is hard to Dyno the XIED, is that you have to wait for the ECU to adjust for the new bias signal from the O2 sensor each time the parameters are changed.

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Old 01-03-2014, 04:27 AM   #187
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This makes sense. The open loop map is fairly sophisticated and is always correcting itself by checking against the O2 sensor whenever it is able to go to closed loop mode. The only way to bias this system is to bias the O2 sensor signal. The problem with killing the O2 sensor signal to ECU is that the limp home mode is always trying to adjust. A backyard tuner will find it hard to duplicate the open loop map and bias the ECU output to the injectors.

The reason that it is hard to Dyno the XIED, is that you have to wait for the ECU to adjust for the new bias signal from the O2 sensor each time the parameters are changed.

David
You're right on in your comments. Some Bosch data that I have here show VE (volumetric efficiency) for a dozen different throttle angles for closed to wot. Each plot line for a given TPS angle goes left to right on the chart. The highest VE on their typical engine peaks between 3000 and 4000 RPM.

BMW has done so much correctly, what I'm trying to do is ferret out how the ECU works so riders can make informed choices on fueling upgrades.
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:24 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
This makes sense. The open loop map is fairly sophisticated and is always correcting itself by checking against the O2 sensor whenever it is able to go to closed loop mode. The only way to bias this system is to bias the O2 sensor signal. The problem with killing the O2 sensor signal to ECU is that the limp home mode is always trying to adjust. A backyard tuner will find it hard to duplicate the open loop map and bias the ECU output to the injectors.

The reason that it is hard to Dyno the XIED, is that you have to wait for the ECU to adjust for the new bias signal from the O2 sensor each time the parameters are changed.

David
Bingo....
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Old 01-03-2014, 08:45 AM   #189
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I received my AF-Xied yesterday and I'm looking forward to the results. First I have to get the new suspension installed.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:57 PM   #190
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Anyone interested is seeing the full effects of Mixture Adaptation by BMW ECUs might want to read the last several posts in this thread. It shows how effective adaptation is in controlling Open Loop fueling, and how important it is.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...1#post23130741
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Old 01-07-2014, 04:47 PM   #191
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How can this be explained?

I have a BoosterPlug. Used it for the last 2 seasons of riding. My bike sits with the battery out for 4 months, then gets ridden 6000 miles or so over the other 8.

My 800GS always popped in the exhaust between gears, and while decelerating in gear. The BP cured this, and it never returned. If it gets adapted out so quick - wouldn't the popping return?
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Old 01-07-2014, 05:40 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Anyone interested is seeing the full effects of Mixture Adaptation by BMW ECUs might want to read the last several posts in this thread. It shows how effective adaptation is in controlling Open Loop fueling, and how important it is.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...1#post23130741
Thanks for posting this info Roger. There is some serious in depth going there.
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Old 01-07-2014, 05:45 PM   #193
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How can this be explained?

I have a BoosterPlug. Used it for the last 2 seasons of riding. My bike sits with the battery out for 4 months, then gets ridden 6000 miles or so over the other 8.

My 800GS always popped in the exhaust between gears, and while decelerating in gear. The BP cured this, and it never returned. If it gets adapted out so quick - wouldn't the popping return?
Hard to say. Could be that it almost gets adapted out, but not full. Mind you the reason for the popping, is merely a bunch of self igniting gasses trapped in your exhaust system, as it goes way lean, or shut of fuel. Those gasses self ignites, and it takes very little enriching of the mixture to stop the popping. That is just a guess. Could also be a mouse nest in your pipe from storing it.... But I put my money on the first one....
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Old 01-07-2014, 06:01 PM   #194
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I guess a lot of these threads are starting to lean toward a AIT device being adapted out in short order. But if one of the good side effects of one remains for thousands of miles, I don't see how that can be the case. If its seen as a mistake, and corrected for, the popping should return too.

I recently had my bike through some very rough terrain, and was thankful to not have the on/off switch throttle that was there before the BP. That, and the lack of popping tells me something else is in this fueling story that hasn't come out yet.
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Old 01-08-2014, 12:44 AM   #195
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I guess a lot of these threads are starting to lean toward a AIT device being adapted out in short order. But if one of the good side effects of one remains for thousands of miles, I don't see how that can be the case. If its seen as a mistake, and corrected for, the popping should return too.

I recently had my bike through some very rough terrain, and was thankful to not have the on/off switch throttle that was there before the BP. That, and the lack of popping tells me something else is in this fueling story that hasn't come out yet.
I always think: never say never. If you're correct though, none of the IAT shift makers can say what it is, how it works or what to measure. I've concentrated on measuring the claim that an IAT shift or FP increase (without also a lambda shift) richens fueling, Bosch's description and the tests I've made show that they don't.

Popping occurs on deceleration when fuel on the wall of the intake evaporates into the combustion chamber but doesn't ignite. But does ignite in the lower pressure exhaust.
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