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Old 11-13-2013, 04:13 PM   #46
jscottyk
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Originally Posted by murph76 View Post
why go through al this trouble .... why not stick with the cheaters ie...booster plug or htcasses deal?.....keep it simple stupid? just wondering
Go read the Wideband O2 Sensor thread. This is as simple as a Booster Plug.

What we are discussing here is comparisons to other approaches.

jscottyk screwed with this post 11-13-2013 at 07:05 PM Reason: added hyperlink
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Old 11-13-2013, 04:59 PM   #47
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Methodical; I love it!
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Old 11-13-2013, 05:03 PM   #48
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why go through al this trouble .... why not stick with the cheaters ie...booster plug or htcasses deal?.....keep it simple stupid? just wondering
Because they are a band aid, which after some time, is nulled. In my book, which off course is ehhhh.... mine, no one's elses......... To get it right, you start fueling correctly, and treating the cause, not the symptoms. The only way to do this, is a fueling app, like the Dynojet app, or the BMW-AF-XIED.
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Old 11-13-2013, 06:41 PM   #49
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Actually he has a point. A plain O2 sensor signal is a function of temperature. Thus one way to fool the computer is to put a spacer under the sensor and move it further away from the center of the exhaust stream. It is difficult to make fine tuned changes, but would be the same as putting a resistor with a pot in the signal wire.

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Old 11-13-2013, 06:59 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
Actually he has a point. A plain O2 sensor signal is a function of temperature. Thus one way to fool the computer is to put a spacer under the sensor and move it further away from the center of the exhaust stream. It is difficult to make fine tuned changes, but would be the same as putting a resistor with a pot in the signal wire.

David
That's not quite right if the sensor is being used at lambda=1 which is 14.7:1. At that point it is accurate, and not temperature sensitive.

Used as with an AF-XIED hotter is better.
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Old 11-13-2013, 07:03 PM   #51
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50 miles on the clock......With some early observations.

1) The tone has not changed since install. Same mellower tone as compared to the PC-5/AT fueled bike.

2) The bike does NOT show the early low mpg numbers that the DJ fueled bike did, during first few gears.

3) MPG is hard to calculate, as I am riding like a hooligan to try to gauge the performance, but after 50 miles, the clock says 50 mpg. I don't thing that really means anything, as I am riding like an idiot.....albeit a rather happy one....

3) I am still on setting #7 to establish a base feel.

4) I have lost power. No if's but's, or when's..... I have lost power. How much..... I'd say this puts it back to stock fuel, with header, and pipe...... IE.... stock fuel. That does not necessarily concern me at this point as, one.... It is still
adapting.....and, Two..... I am at a 14.1 AFR...... which is less than I was at before. Mind you, that even after I ended up at 14 AFR with the dynojet, I think it was running richer than that.


5) The only time it behaves as good as the DJ fueled bike, is at 60 mph in 6 gear, and you WOT the bike..... same pull

6) Off idle burble ( hop) is more noticeable, and I do not like that. I know I have a Rekluse clutch in there, but it annoys the hell out of me. I am hoping that will minimize as I go lower AFR.

7) Throttle response is not as crisp as before, hands down. It is now somewhat muffled, and hard to id the crisp onset, when opening the throttle, and not WOT, but either. Nowhere it should be.

8) I now get a double pop at 2800-3000 rpm on decel, as SAS engages, with the DJ I would occasionally get a single pop.

This sounds like a boat load of trouble, but it is really not. I am encouraged to as what I see so far. I am a straight shooter, that deliver the news as they are. I do not bias anything. My personal thinking is that all the above symptoms are just of a too lean fueled bike, and it just needs more fuel in my app, as open headers, and pipe have shown they perform, with correct fueling. So with that said, I will ride another 50-100 miles on #7 and then go to #8, for a 13.8 AFR, and see what happens.


With you full custom exhaust, this is exactly what I'd expect so far. You're only adding 4% to fueling which is a setting used to take away the stock bike's bad manners at lower rpms and smaller throttle openings.

The adaptation at any setting happens faster when you ride steadily at a multitude of rpms and throttle angles. If you're on and off the throttle and aggressive, adaptation takes longer.

The AF-XIED has upper settings that will add all the fuel an engine can make use of. Patience, grasshopper. ... ;)
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Old 11-13-2013, 07:52 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
That's not quite right if the sensor is being used at lambda=1 which is 14.7:1. At that point it is accurate, and not temperature sensitive.

Used as with an AF-XIED hotter is better.
I have seen several comments refer to the temp offset, for backyard hacks for systems that have pre and post sensors and the catalyst removed. Usually it is the post O2 sensor that you want cooler. Does BMW use a wide band or heated sensor?

David
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Old 11-13-2013, 08:01 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
I have seen several comments refer to the temp offset, for backyard hacks for systems that have pre and post sensors and the catalyst removed. Usually it is the post O2 sensor that you want cooler. Does BMW use a wide band or heated sensor?

David
The stock sensor is actually a narrow band. The DJ Auto tune is a wide band...... Cant tell you about the heat class.
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Old 11-13-2013, 08:05 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
With you full custom exhaust, this is exactly what I'd expect so far. You're only adding 4% to fueling which is a setting used to take away the stock bike's bad manners at lower rpms and smaller throttle openings.

The adaptation at any setting happens faster when you ride steadily at a multitude of rpms and throttle angles. If you're on and off the throttle and aggressive, adaptation takes longer.

The AF-XIED has upper settings that will add all the fuel an engine can make use of. Patience, grasshopper. ... ;)
Yeppers.....
As I mentioned above, I am really ok with the early findings. I fully expected this result at 14.1 AFR. That is in fact why I decided to stay at #7 for a while, to go from the known tried setting, that most find that they like, and then turn it up to #8 at 13.8 after a while. I am encouraged about the behavior, as the bike appears a bit under fulled ( which it should be at 14.1) and then await what happens as I move to the next setting.
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Old 11-13-2013, 08:10 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
I have seen several comments refer to the temp offset, for backyard hacks for systems that have pre and post sensors and the catalyst removed. Usually it is the post O2 sensor that you want cooler. Does BMW use a wide band or heated sensor?

David
The stock sensor is a 4 wire, heated Narrowband O2 sensor. The way in which it is used by the BMSK and Motronic makes it very insensitive to exhaust temperature at 14.7:1.
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Old 11-14-2013, 03:18 AM   #56
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I assume that a heated sensor would not be sensitive to temperature. Thanks.
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Old 11-14-2013, 04:05 AM   #57
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I assume that a heated sensor would not be sensitive to temperature. Thanks.
You'd think that but I've tested several of them and also run them in the 1150.

The Motronic MA 2.2 (R1100) uses an old-style thimble sensor and powers the heater all the time. In my tests, it was insensitive to the range of exhaust temperatures in my exhaust, even when used richer than its design point. (Made by Bosch.)

The early MA 2.4 (single-spark R1150) also uses a thimble sensor but it is not powered for the first few minutes after a cold start. Not particularly sensitive to exhaust heat in my RT. (Made by Bosch.)

The later MA 2.4 (dual-spark R1150) uses a planar sensor and it is not powered for the first few minutes after a cold start. Somewhat sensitive to exhaust heat in my RT. Used at 13.5:1 with my RT I saw +/- 0.2 AFR variation between idle and high power. (Made by NTK.)

BMSK bikes use a planar sensor from Bosch. The heater is powered based on engine load and other factors. Measured on my bike, it was more stable than the NTK. It seems to work quite well with the BMSK. I believe that the BMSK is working to keep the sensor temperature steady by adding heat when the exhaust is cooler and not when it is hotter.
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:18 PM   #58
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One more observation. The, should we call it , " lag of power" is most noticeable in the first 3 gears, from 50% to 100% throttle. Before, the bike kept pulling, and the tone was snarlier....snappier.... whatever you wanna call it. Before, it would power wheelie in first, by whacking the throttle. Not close to that now. So I know that some of you are taking this as a gripe with the system, but it is not. I am satisfied with the predicted results as of now. I am posting this as a full review, and when I review an item, weather it is a high dollar av processor, mountain bike, aircraft for that matter.... or a fueling system, it is my duty to report every little thought, and observation that I see. That does not mean anything negative, that just mean that I want to share all the observations that I see. Just wait for my review of the Rekluse......
So back on track.... I found that the difference in what the DJ/AT added in many of the boxes ( see link to other thread on page one) was capped on the ceiling of 25%, that meant if AT were to uphold the target AFR, it actually were in the need of more than 25%..... Or was it.....???? That is the question, as I had very clear indication that it was running rich.... perhaps quite a lot richer that the target 13.2-14.0 it was supposed to be, as indicating by the wideband sensor removed.
Reason that I mention this, is the overall fuel consumption increase ( which was not metered on the computer) was calculated at 15-20%. I came to that conclusion by observing a few fill ups, and calculated the mileage.....compared that to what the computer said. And I saw from 7-9 mpg difference, at a mileage per gallon of around the number 50....... so that is about 14-18% overall.

This is where this will now make sense to you. Look at the values below. You will note that I am at #7, which is only a 4% increase....... A far cry from what the DJ system were demanding, so with that in mind, even at #9, I am still only at less that half of what the DJ/AT were demanding. There is a caveat though. The DJ/AT were sorta running in full time Closed loop, for all practical purposes, whereas the XIED fueling table reffers to the closed loop, part of the fueling, and hopefully adapting these to the closed loop values....... we shall see.

F1--14.7:1 (stock)
F6--14.35 +/-0.15 AFR (2% richer)
F7--14.15 +/-0.15 AFR (4%)
F8--13.8 +/-0.2 AFR (6%)
F9--13.5 +/-0.3 AFR (8%)


I think that tomorrow, I will try the F#8, unless Roger seems like that would be too early......

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Old 11-14-2013, 04:40 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
You'd think that but I've tested several of them and also run them in the 1150.

The Motronic MA 2.2 (R1100) uses an old-style thimble sensor and powers the heater all the time. In my tests, it was insensitive to the range of exhaust temperatures in my exhaust, even when used richer than its design point. (Made by Bosch.)

The early MA 2.4 (single-spark R1150) also uses a thimble sensor but it is not powered for the first few minutes after a cold start. Not particularly sensitive to exhaust heat in my RT. (Made by Bosch.)

The later MA 2.4 (dual-spark R1150) uses a planar sensor and it is not powered for the first few minutes after a cold start. Somewhat sensitive to exhaust heat in my RT. Used at 13.5:1 with my RT I saw +/- 0.2 AFR variation between idle and high power. (Made by NTK.)

BMSK bikes use a planar sensor from Bosch. The heater is powered based on engine load and other factors. Measured on my bike, it was more stable than the NTK. It seems to work quite well with the BMSK. I believe that the BMSK is working to keep the sensor temperature steady by adding heat when the exhaust is cooler and not when it is hotter.
Interesting. I would imagine that the computer would run in open loop until the O2 sensor was up to temperature.

I would think the +/- 0.2 AFR would mess with the Catalyst, but is it perceptible to the rider?

David
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Old 11-14-2013, 05:27 PM   #60
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"Interesting. I would imagine that the computer would run in open loop until the O2 sensor was up to temperature."

David, that is about 30 seconds with my bike. I thought the "bung extender" on the post O2 sensor was mainly to prevent the CEL fault when using a free flowing CAT. Isn't the "bung extender" on the primary O2 sensor to fool the ECU into thinking the mixture was "rich" therefore it would lean out for better fuel mileage? Among other things, the O2 signal not being linear makes the resistor and pot idea not an ideal solution.

Thanks

Terry
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